# Is stating "Women can change their behavior to lessen their chance of sexual assault" misogynistic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2019, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100 "2019-07-15T01:25:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/121 "2019-07-16T02:43:36Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Women are assaulted at work. > Women are assaulted at school. > Women are assaulted by their friends > Women are assaulted by their relatives > Women are assaulted walking their dog > Women are assaulted everywhere, there is in fact no safe way to act, dress, talk, be. There are only insanely risky and just normally risky things. It is not the same at all for men. There is no equivalent status. Even black men in the US, who legitimately fear a lot of things white men don’t face, do not have to fear being raped by their boss, or their gym coach, or their uncle. So it really cannot be compared to anything men experience, and I think it is really insulting to try. Most women do not have to fear being raped by their boss, their gym coach, or their uncle either. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/122 "2019-07-16T02:45:45Z")
How does a child change their behavior to lessen the risk of sexual assault? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/123 "2019-07-16T03:35:30Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > How does a child change their behavior to lessen the risk of sexual assault? By not taking candy from strange men in vans? Seriously, you can’t eliminate risk but you can take actions to mitigate risk. And no, that’s not treating people as property or victim blaming. I lock my car doors at night. House doors as well. It doesn’t absolve the thief of blame but it’s reasonable risk reduction. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/124 "2019-07-16T05:51:17Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Your circle is not average! Based on the activities mentioned, you’re a relatively young adult, employed, have expendable income, and don’t have children. I’m a 40-something parent, actually. And you don’t need expendable income to get out of the house. > [@](#): > > Change any one of those factors and you’d be spending more time at home. Parents spend more time at home. Kids and teenagers spend more time at home. Neither of those is my experience. > [@](#): > > Small children and the elderly spend almost all their time at home. Maybe this is a cultural distinction - IME, small children spend their time either at Kindergarten, daycare or running around outside. \*Babies \*spend their time inside. Old people I grant you. > [@](#): > > But again, my point wasn’t really about where head injuries will occur, but that you can’t look simply at the percentages the way that the post I responded to did to get that information. I agree with that point. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/125 "2019-07-16T05:52:19Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Most women do not have to fear being raped by their boss, their gym coach, or their uncle either. _Don’t_ they, though? ---
**Author:** ![lawf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@lawf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawf)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/126 "2019-07-16T10:56:54Z")
It may not necessarily be misogynistic, but it is a troubling thing to say, even if well-intentioned. The statement essentially asks people to be alright with systemic ills that make it especially difficult for women to be as they please. Let’s not forget, though: rapes seldom happen in public spaces, unlike molestation. Moreover, rapes happen at the hands of uncles, cousins, relatives, fathers, teachers, and other people who tend to be closely associated with the victim. Coming back to public conduct, isn’t it unfair how many things women have to mind to remain unmolested? Men, on the other hand, hardly ever have restrictions. The one they do have–“dont rape, dont molest”–they flout easily. Sociologists and activists have been pointing out how it is difficult for victims to come out about their abuse (See: [Sociology: The Essentials](https://www.bartleby.com/textbooks/sociology-the-essentials-mindtap-course-list-9th-edition/9781305503083/solutions)). In this context, it would be extremely unfair to suggest that women should be more “passive” things to reduce the chances of being molested. On the other hand, it would not be unfair to say that “women can carry pepper sprays to deal with molesters,” or to suggest similar “active” measures (although pepper sprays, too, are not always effective). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/127 "2019-07-16T11:25:38Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Most women do not have to fear being raped by their boss, their gym coach, or their uncle either. Depends on the boss, gym coach and uncle. I’ve got instances of any of those that I always made sure to never be alone with. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/128 "2019-07-16T12:58:56Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > By not taking candy from strange men in vans? Seriously, you can’t eliminate risk but you can take actions to mitigate risk. And no, that’s not treating people as property or victim blaming. I lock my car doors at night. House doors as well. It doesn’t absolve the thief of blame but it’s reasonable risk reduction. But what is reasonable risk reduction? Is avoiding clothes that show too much skin “reasonable risk protection”? What about not taking a job or promotion that requires a woman to travel alone, with male co-workers she doesn’t know well? What about a job that requires lots of late nights working with men she doesn’t know well, or walking through dark parking garages at night? What about not running or walking after dark in a suburban neighborhood? What about not driving between cities alone? What about meeting a guy you really like at a party, having good chemistry, but not going to sit outside on the patio in a secluded area so you can talk? What about not letting a male co-worker or male friend give you a ride home from work when you discover your car is broken, or because someone in your family needed to use your car? What about not camping or hiking with another woman? What about not living on campus in college? What about never having a 3-5 drinks over the course of an evening? All of these–and more–are things I’ve been told are reasonable precautions. None of them, to me, seem to be likely to reduce risk to a degree that’s worth the cost. Some, like dressing conservatively, don’t have any impact at all. Others, like working alone with men, do carry risks, but the people that are telling women to avoid the risks, “just in case” are not the ones who bear the costs of giving up on their career and personal aspirations. Taken as a set, can you see how it feels less like an attempt to “save” women from rape and more like a systematic attempt to use the “but you’ll be raped!” boogieman to limit and control women? Can you see why being told “It’s not fair, but it’s just the truth” galls when it’s probably not even true, but it come at substantial cost? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/129 "2019-07-16T14:27:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The thing that gets me–and to be fair it gets me after someone pointed it out to me on this messageboard–is that there’s pretty much no advice on how not to get sexually assaulted that a grown-ass man is gonna give to a grown-ass woman that she doesn’t already know. > > This is like how I, as a very pale-skinned guy, don’t want you tanned SOBs out there to give me advice on avoiding sunburn. “Have you thought about wearing sunscreen? Hey, you could always try a hat if you don’t want to burn! You KNOW, Dorkness, that if you go inside during the peak hours of 10 am to 2 pm, you’re avoiding the worst risks!” Thanks, geniuses, but this is my life, I know this shit. > > There may be specific exceptions: “Ooh, Liza, I saw you flirting with Jim, but you should know he’s got a reputation of being a real skeezeball, be careful.” “You want to go to Club Legend? Really? Did you read that their bartender was arrested for assaulting an underage girl there last week?” Or maybe you’re a martial arts instructor teaching a class to people who have paid to show up, in which case, get down with your expertise. > > But the general sort of Captain Obvious advice, the “Don’t drink too much at frat parties” advice, the “don’t walk alone down dark streets at 2 am” advice, the advice that usually comes up in threads, isn’t exactly gonna be revelatory to anybody. That to me is why the advice - coming from men - is misogynistic. Its patronizing. Its things women know - and women tell each other. I tell my daughter, my mother told me, my friends told me, I told my friends. How was it put above … “the greatest intellect attached to two testicles…” The other reason the advice - coming from men - is misogynistic is that it suggests that I limit my behavior…and often in ways that usually reduce my own power and agency. Don’t walk out at night limits my ability to do a job in a city where in winter in gets dark at 5pm and I have to walk to my car - and what if I have to stay late to finish something - when downtown clears out and I have to walk in the dark through empty streets. Don’t go out where people are drinking limits my ability to go dancing with friends. Stay with a buddy means that me (and my buddy) are now dependent on each other. Never be alone with a man would have hamstrung the career I had in infrastructure IT - where I spent my 20s working late at night racking servers with another member of staff - who was never another woman. These things limit my movement, my ability to take a place in society that values independence and free movement - and assumes free movement in order to hold most jobs. Now, not being stupid, I do a mental risk analysis when I undertake these things - I take steps - mace in my hand when walking to the car after a late night at work, for instance - to address the risk if it arises. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/130 "2019-07-16T14:35:42Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > All of these–and more–are things I’ve been told are reasonable precautions. None of them, to me, seem to be likely to reduce risk to a degree that’s worth the cost. Some, like dressing conservatively, don’t have any impact at all. Others, like working alone with men, do carry risks, but the people that are telling women to avoid the risks, “just in case” are not the ones who bear the costs of giving up on their career and personal aspirations. > > Taken as a set, can you see how it feels less like an attempt to “save” women from rape and more like a systematic attempt to use the “but you’ll be raped!” boogieman to limit and control women? Can you see why being told “It’s not fair, but it’s just the truth” galls when it’s probably not even true, but it come at substantial cost? The recipient of the advice decides whether or not to heed the advice. Giving advice does not control anyone. There are barrels-full of bad financial advice coming out every day. This in no way controls financial decisions. Should society shun bad advice and label it with smear terms such as “racist” and “misogynistic”? Seems a bit much. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/131 "2019-07-16T14:42:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Should society shun bad advice and label it with smear terms such as “racist” and “misogynistic”? Seems a bit much. Not if the bad advice is racist and/or misogynistic. What is, is…whether you like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/132 "2019-07-16T14:53:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The recipient of the advice decides whether or not to heed the advice. Giving advice does not control anyone. There are barrels-full of bad financial advice coming out every day. This in no way controls financial decisions. > > Should society shun bad advice and label it with smear terms such as “racist” and “misogynistic”? Seems a bit much. Labeling it “bad” is okay, but explaining why it’s bad is a bit much? That’s ridonkulous. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/133 "2019-07-16T15:01:12Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The recipient of the advice decides whether or not to heed the advice. Giving advice does not control anyone. There are barrels-full of bad financial advice coming out every day. This in no way controls financial decisions. > > Should society shun bad advice and label it with smear terms such as “racist” and “misogynistic”? Seems a bit much. Yes, it’s impossible that evoking fear could ever control a population. That’s crazy talk! ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/134 "2019-07-16T15:07:28Z")
Can we just let that go by? The thread is interesting. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/135 "2019-07-16T15:56:54Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Yes, it’s impossible that evoking fear could ever control a population. That’s crazy talk! No, it’s more about explaining the realities of a situation to someone that may not know them. I would tell a rich guy to avoid certain neighborhoods at certain times. What if I were to tell a woman the same thing for different reasons? Nothing can be done that might prevent the aggression in the immediate term besides giving a warning. To stifle sad-but-true warnings and just work on a long term solution, such as changing society, is not a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/136 "2019-07-16T16:09:50Z")
NM. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/137 "2019-07-16T16:15:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > By not taking candy from strange men in vans? Seriously, you can’t eliminate risk but you can take actions to mitigate risk. And no, that’s not treating people as property or victim blaming. I lock my car doors at night. House doors as well. It doesn’t absolve the thief of blame but it’s reasonable risk reduction. This is the part I’m not picking up on those that are piling on **manson1972**. By no means, if this world was perfect, would this even be a discussion. However, the world is not perfect, and there are definitely risks, and taking actions to mitigate risks to oneself should pretty much be a no-brainer. Of course, all of the circumstances that folks are calling out as evidence that “staying home” wouldn’t help are true… but that doesn’t mean the idea isn’t valid. If you are in the kind of relationship where spousal rape is a possible, or likely, outcome, perhaps staying home isn’t a helpful idea. So, this is obviously not a one-size-fits-all solution, but that doesn’t diminish it as a potential mitigation for established risks. As put forth, it was quite obviously hyperbolic, but it doesn’t change the idea that for specific risks, it would obviously lessen the chance of assault. Anecdote: My wife has literally nothing to fear from me regarding spousal rape or abuse. However, she has been assaulted in the bar multiple times, including once being dragged behind a bar, punched and chokeslammed during an attempted rape, and once suffering far worse that I don’t feel comfortable illuminating even on a semi-anonymous message board. Literally every single one of her specific assaults could have been prevented by just NOT drunkenly partying with her friends. The fact that she suffered these is not her FAULT. However, there was an option to mitigate those risks, that would have been effective… and to suggest otherwise seems to be very disingenuous. In my opinion, sexual assault should be treated nearly on par with murder, and any person that felt they had the right to assault a person should basically be considered irredeemable, and locked away for the good of society. No person should have to fear being assaulted. But we don’t live in a utopia yet, so until then, take wise precautions to protect yourself. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/138 "2019-07-16T16:21:12Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > But what is reasonable risk reduction? > > Is avoiding clothes that show too much skin “reasonable risk protection”? > What about not taking a job or promotion that requires a woman to travel alone, with male co-workers she doesn’t know well? > What about a job that requires lots of late nights working with men she doesn’t know well, or walking through dark parking garages at night? > What about not running or walking after dark in a suburban neighborhood? > What about not driving between cities alone? > What about meeting a guy you really like at a party, having good chemistry, but not going to sit outside on the patio in a secluded area so you can talk? > What about not letting a male co-worker or male friend give you a ride home from work when you discover your car is broken, or because someone in your family needed to use your car? > What about not camping or hiking with another woman? > What about not living on campus in college? > What about never having a 3-5 drinks over the course of an evening? > > All of these–and more–are things I’ve been told are reasonable precautions. None of them, to me, seem to be likely to reduce risk to a degree that’s worth the cost. Some, like dressing conservatively, don’t have any impact at all. Others, like working alone with men, do carry risks, but the people that are telling women to avoid the risks, “just in case” are not the ones who bear the costs of giving up on their career and personal aspirations. > > Taken as a set, can you see how it feels less like an attempt to “save” women from rape and more like a systematic attempt to use the “but you’ll be raped!” boogieman to limit and control women? Can you see why being told “It’s not fair, but it’s just the truth” galls when it’s probably not even true, but it come at substantial cost? I look at this as multilayered. You have what is one to do at the personal level and what one is doing to change society. I think that no one should be raped anywhere under any condition. But rapists exist. And I wouldn’t, merely out of principle, put myself at unnecessary risk. Now what is unnecessary risk? I can’t answer that. The posts about the rapes that occur at home and by relatives or partners actually have changed my thinking a little bit. How you dress or what one does not drink are not going to help you there. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/139 "2019-07-16T16:21:43Z")
How often does your wife need you to tell her that staying inside a room will essentially eliminate her chances of being assaulted? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100/140 "2019-07-16T16:37:13Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Depends on the boss, gym coach and uncle. I’ve got instances of any of those that I always made sure to never be alone with. I posted this in another thread, but I think it’s relevant here. The lead article in the Atlantic this week is about the investigation and prosecution of rape. It’s called \*An Epidemic of Disbelief \*. > **[Why Rape Goes Unpunished — The Atlantic](https://apple.news/AHlaKkpEJTVmRga9-wAy21A)** > > What new research reveals about sexual predators, and why police fail to catch them. The article talks about a movement to DNA test rape kits that were sitting, untested, in police evidence lockers. There are tens of thousands of them, at least. Many of these have now been tested and the results are yielding new information about the patterns of rapists. Many if these kits had not been tested simply because the identity of the rapist was known. He was a date, a friend, an an acquaintance, a family member. But when these kits were finally tested, many of them revealed DNA matches that cleared open cases of stranger rapes. Which discredits the idea that date rapists are ordinary guys that suffered a lapse of impulse control brought on because of female behavior. Turns out that date rapists are just rapists. Imagine that, [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stating-women-can-change-their-behavior-to-lessen-their-chance-of-sexual-assault-misogynistic/837100.md?page=8)