# Is stealing stolen items illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135 "2024-01-15T20:11:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/21 "2024-01-16T22:43:15Z")
The whole thing about “intent” is often crucial in theft cases. There needs to be the intention to deprive the owner of his goods In the UK we have a specific offence relating to vehicles called TWOC (Taking Without Consent). The reason for this is that teenagers (mostly) were “borrowing” cars and driving around in then - so-called “joy riding”. If caught they could plead that they had only “borrowed” the vehicle and had no intention of keeping it. TWOC negated this defence. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/22 "2024-01-17T09:58:31Z")
Is it vandalism/criminal damage if you non-offensively graffiti over some offensive graffiti? Eg you turn a swastika painted on a public building by someone else into something innocuous. Your act has actually made the thing less damaged. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/23 "2024-01-17T13:10:06Z")
Well, yes. At the end of the day, you’ve just added more graffiti to be removed later. Your intent was still to deface the building, just in a different way from somebody else. If you really want to help, maybe cover it from view and contact the relevant authorities and/or building maintenance? Instead of paint, say somebody had carved the swastika into the side of the building and you decided to carve more out of the building to turn it into a less offensive symbol. In this case, most people would agree that’s not helpful. The damage being paint rather than gouging chunks out of the building is a difference of degree rather than of kind. Literally taking the law into your own hands is generally frowned upon. As a practical matter, maybe you don’t get in much trouble, if any at all, but that’s really more a matter of discretion rather than an all-clear to go vigilante ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/24 "2024-01-17T13:43:23Z")
From Peter Stone’s script for **Charade** (1963) > [@](#): > > ``` > REGGIE > That money's not ours, Adam -- if we > keep it, we'll be breaking the law. > > ADAM > Nonsense. We didn't steal it. There's > no law against stealing stolen money. > > REGGIE > Of course there is! > > ADAM > There is? When did they pass such a silly law? > > ``` (I’ve fixed it. Apparently this site has the original script, but in the movie, Cary (Adam) Grant says the line as I’ve given it above) [https://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/Charade.txt](https://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/Charade.txt) (about 3/4 of the way down). ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/25 "2024-01-17T13:58:49Z")
What about reverse graffiti? Is it illegal to wash only selected parts of a wall? > **[Reverse graffiti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_graffiti#)** > > Reverse graffiti\[note 1\] is a method of creating temporary or semi-permanent images on walls or other surfaces by removing dirt from a surface. It can also be done by simply removing dirt with the fingertip from windows or other dirty surfaces, such as writing "wash me" on a dirty vehicle. Others, such as graffiti artist Moose, use a cloth or a high-power washer to remove dirt on a larger scale. > Reverse graffiti has been used as a form of advertising, although this usage has been controversial, ... ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/26 "2024-01-17T14:56:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But I didn’t steal anything from the person who owned it. “Possession of stolen property.” Also, they can charge you with theft anyway because it would be very difficult to prove you didn’t steal it because you have it in your possession. “I stole it from the guy who stole it” isn’t much of a defense. LOL Um … is there something you want to tell us? 😈 ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/27 "2024-01-17T15:03:01Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > Is it vandalism/criminal damage if you non-offensively graffiti over some offensive graffiti? Or, even further, what if the graffiti you’re applying over the pre-existing graffiti is simply paint matching the rest of the wall, so that a casual observer wouldn’t notice any additional paint at all? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/28 "2024-01-17T15:05:06Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > What about reverse graffiti? Is it illegal to wash only selected parts of a wall? How do you know if you’re actually improving things in that situation? For example, if you “wash” the green copper patina off the Statue of Liberty (or any other copper architectural components), the owner isn’t likely to see that as an improvement. You could say the same for a lot of so-called “improvements”. Most people consider dandelions weeds, but some people love them and would hate to see you “generously” weed their yard to remove them. Ivy growing on a wall could be considered a damaging parasite or a charming decoration. For that matter, imagine a wannabe HOA Karen “helpfully” covering your Painted Lady home with a coat of beige, to improve property values? I’d say, in general, unwanted “improvements,” including washing, however well intended, could often be as bad or worse than overt vandalism. Of course putting out a house fire is a different story. Not sure exactly where the line is drawn though. If it’s not an emergency, I’d make sure to get the owner’s consent first. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/29 "2024-01-17T15:06:00Z")
In the same vein, some folks _like_ graffiti. Suppose you painted over a Banksy work, in a misguided attempt to help the building owner? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/30 "2024-01-17T15:08:15Z")
In short, if it isn’t yours, don’t touch it. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/31 "2024-01-17T15:29:11Z")
What if you “helpfully” restored a fresco of Jesus at your local church? > **[That's bananas! Pensioner tries to restore church's faded painting... and...](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/jesus-painting-restoration-makes-christ-1276477.amp)** > > The well-meaning 80-year-old decided to touch up the worn fresco of Christ wearing a crown of thorns at her church ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/32 "2024-01-17T15:31:10Z")
In short, taking the law into your own hands is generally frowned upon. Also, unintended consequences abound. With a touch of the road to hell is paved with good intentions ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/33 "2024-01-17T16:56:34Z")
My thought is that vandalism must involve _damage_ and changing a swastika to.a grid isnt damage by any sane definition. Presumably non-offensivley defacing a fly poster is no offence? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/34 "2024-01-17T16:59:46Z")
You’re damaging the parts of the wall that were previously unpainted, by adding paint to them. Think of it this way - if the owner of the wall wanted to remove the paint and restore the wall to pristine state you’ve made his life harder, not easier. And of course, if the owner of the wall wanted the swastika there, you have damaged it by changing it to a grid. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/35 "2024-01-17T17:05:17Z")
If you steal the wallet from a thief, you’ve committed theft. But if you do so with the intent **and subsequent immediate action** of returning it to its owner, I suspect they’re probably not going to charge you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/36 "2024-01-17T17:05:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But I didn’t steal anything from the person who owned it. I feel you did. You took an action to take something into your possession which you knew belonged to somebody else. That’s theft. The fact that took the item from another thief rather than directly from its owner doesn’t change the central principle. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/37 "2024-01-17T17:23:35Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Also, they can charge you with theft anyway because it would be very difficult to prove you didn’t steal it because you have it in your possession. “I stole it from the guy who stole it” isn’t much of a defense. LOL The problem is that the state has to _prove you personally stole it_. It’s not an automatic conviction, “prove you didn’t or you’re guilty”. Hence the charge of possession of stolen propety instead. Of course, if you’re stupid enough to explain that indeed, you did steal it but not from the owner - well, you stole it and the owner is deprived of it, so welcome to Judge Judy Legal Logic… justify your offense by saying someone else committed one. “He owed me $300 and wouldn’t repay it so I took his flat-screen TV.” The question isn’t “what did others do?” the question is “what did you do?” ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135/38 "2024-01-17T17:30:11Z")
UK law is clear Theft is defined as **the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive the other of it**. So take a stolen wallet from the thief with the jntent keep for yourself: theft Take a stolen wallet from the thief with the intent of returning it to the rightful owner: not theft [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stealing-stolen-items-illegal/996135.md?page=1)