# Is stigmata biologically plausible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 1, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752 "2013-09-01T20:09:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CloneFive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@CloneFive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CloneFive)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/1 "2013-09-01T20:09:45Z")
Taken from the website [Psychosomosis - the Placebo and Nocebo Effects: Curing and Causing Disease with the Mind](http://www.humantruth.info/psychosomosis.html) , I suppose one should take it with a pinch of salt, however said doctor appears to exist and has published research papers. ‘‘**Hypnotized and entranced subjects can develop spontaneous (but not random) wounds, such as patients who are touched with a (room temperature) pen that they are told is red hot, and develop real blisters as a result of the imagined heat. Wounds like these are frequently associated with powerful memories; one subject would develop weals and blisters around his wrists similar to wounds he received 10 years earlier when tied up. A 37 year old female patient described her father’s childhood beatings, and while doing so "bleeding whip marks appeared on her legs, buttocks, shoulders and hands. These were witnessed, photographed and reported by physicians, and had moreover to be dressed and treated […]. Two further cases of this same phenomenon are also reported by Dr Moody**’’ I assumed that bleeding was a result of direct damage to both the dermis and epidermis, and not stress hormone secretion or nerve transmission as a result of suggestion, however I could be incorrect. What’s the straight dope? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/2 "2013-09-01T20:16:29Z")
A relevant article by Cecil is [here.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1163/whats-the-deal-with-stigmata) I suggest you inflate that pinch of salt to a block unless you are seriously wedded to believing the unlikely in the face of all evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/3 "2013-09-01T20:19:55Z")
What mechanism would translate thoughts about being whipped into actual bleeding weals on the skin? What would happen within the body to actually cause the skin and blood vessels to come apart and emit blood? ---
**Author:** ![CloneFive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@CloneFive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CloneFive)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/4 "2013-09-01T20:31:00Z")
Bleeding can occur under the skin as a result of emotional stress - [Two cases of psychogenic purpura - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9658935) however this does not result in external bleeding. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/5 "2013-09-01T20:33:50Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What mechanism would translate thoughts about being whipped into actual bleeding weals on the skin? What would happen within the body to actually cause the skin and blood vessels to come apart and emit blood? Magic? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/6 "2013-09-01T20:58:01Z")
That would do it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/7 "2013-09-01T20:59:31Z")
> [@CloneFive](#): > > Bleeding can occur under the skin as a result of emotional stress - [Two cases of psychogenic purpura - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9658935) however this does not result in external bleeding. Sure, but in a very specific place and pattern? ---
**Author:** ![CloneFive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@CloneFive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CloneFive)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/8 "2013-09-01T21:43:39Z")
A suggestion of pain within one arm could lead to a stress response that results in actual pain located in the suggested arm, I am unaware of the mechanism behind bleeding, but I do not know much regarding the subject. I meant to edit my previous post and mention that individuals without a history of psychological disorder have endured the condition. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/9 "2013-09-01T21:48:14Z")
While, given a great stretch of the imagination, it might be possible for your mind to make your body bleed in a specific place, that’s doing it the hard way. It’s comparatively easy to use misdirection and fraud to simulate it. So far, that’s the only way we know for sure it is has been done. All else is speculation. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/10 "2013-09-01T21:52:59Z")
A brain can make a body bleed on a regular cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/11 "2013-09-01T21:57:09Z")
> [@CloneFive](#): > > A suggestion of pain within one arm could lead to a stress response that results in actual pain located in the suggested arm, I am unaware of the mechanism behind bleeding, but I do not know much regarding the subject. I meant to edit my previous post and mention that individuals without a history of psychological disorder have endured the condition. Can you link directly to a site that shows such a case? Something with names, dates and places would be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/12 "2013-09-01T22:00:27Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > While, given a great stretch of the imagination, it might be possible for your mind to make your body bleed in a specific place, that’s doing it the hard way. It’s comparatively easy to use misdirection and fraud to simulate it. So far, that’s the only way we know for sure it is has been done. All else is speculation. Indeed, and human fingernails are quite capable of inflicting damage to human skin - a person undergoing some sort of mental episode could probably quite easily scratch or cut themselves, then deny (or just not remember) doing it. Even if they were under constant watch this could go unnoticed. ---
**Author:** ![CloneFive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@CloneFive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CloneFive)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/13 "2013-09-01T22:18:26Z")
Are there any known hormones or neurotransmitters which can result in the braking of the epidermis? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/14 "2013-09-01T22:23:35Z")
> [@CloneFive](#): > > Are there any known hormones or neurotransmitters which can result in the braking of the epidermis? I think we should see first _if_ it happens before we try to figure out _how_ it happens. ---
**Author:** ![CloneFive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@CloneFive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CloneFive)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/15 "2013-09-01T22:27:54Z")
The doctor I quoted in my original post exists and has published other articles and papers on medical agendas. Additionally, the case of the production of blisters or blood from hypnotic suggestion is a famous one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/16 "2013-09-01T22:45:42Z")
> [@CloneFive](#): > > The doctor I quoted in my original post exists and has published other articles and papers on medical agendas. Additionally, the case of the production of blisters or blood from hypnotic suggestion is a famous one. So you should have no problem linking directly to information we can examine, right? ---
**Author:** ![CloneFive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e57/32.png) [@CloneFive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CloneFive)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/17 "2013-09-01T22:49:18Z")
I don’t have to. You have access to a fine search engine by the name of ‘‘Google’’. Conversely, I asked if it were possible for suggestion to cause external bleeding. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/18 "2013-09-01T23:13:07Z")
> [@CloneFive](#): > > Are there any known hormones or neurotransmitters which can result in the braking of the epidermis? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think we should see first _if_ it happens before we try to figure out _how_ it happens. [Eczema](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eczema), a commonly malady. The causes are mysterious, but one hypothesis involves a skin barrier defect leading to reactions to all manner of environmental insults. At any rate it can leading to bleeding palms. At least it did for me, once. I was in the midst of an outbreak with elevated itching. I used acupressure on my palm for relief. The next day, my palm was bleeding. It was somewhat ugly. Stigmata seem fairly non-mysterious to me: it’s not like skin never breaks. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/19 "2013-09-01T23:24:07Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Indeed, and human fingernails are quite capable of inflicting damage to human skin - a person undergoing some sort of mental episode could probably quite easily scratch or cut themselves, then deny (or just not remember) doing it. Even if they were under constant watch this could go unnoticed. Indeed. I once had a magician under constant watch and he still managed to make a card disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752/20 "2013-09-01T23:30:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So you should have no problem linking directly to information we can examine, right? > [@CloneFive](#): > > I don’t have to. You have access to a fine search engine by the name of ‘‘Google’’. Conversely, I asked if it were possible for suggestion to cause external bleeding. And _you_ have access to the same fine search engine. But Czarcasm isn’t making the fantastic claim; _you are_. It behooves you to supply good evidence to support it. Evidence as in valid medical studies and reliable sources that we can examine. Otherwise, the position that stigmata is caused by the mind amounts to bullshit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-stigmata-biologically-plausible/667752.md?page=2)