# Is striking a form of gambling? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 14, 2011, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988 "2011-07-14T07:17:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/21 "2011-07-14T15:03:15Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Not really. Most of us are citizens because we were born here, so the vast majority of us never chose to be a member of a country, we’ve simply chosen not to leave it. Leaving a country is, after all, vastly more difficult than leaving a union. And you can’t just leave a country and be a non-citizen of all countries, AFAIK. Sorry, but your analogy doesn’t hold water. But it was your analogy in the first place! You brought up governmental powers. > [@](#): > > No, when you take a vow to support something, you don’t get to pick and choose any more. Can you pick and choose when not to cheat on your spouse? Can you pick and choose which orders to obey in the military? Yes and yes. Of course when and how you choose to do these things will effect how easy and painless it is. To jilt a woman at the altar is a dickish thing to do. To reject a proposal is not. To refuse to fight in the middle of a battle is a dickish thing to do, to refuse to mobilise on conscientious grounds is not. To stand on a picket line one day and cross it the next is a dickish thing to do, to object to a strike or refuse to join the union in the first place is not. > [@](#): > > Of course anyone should be free to withdraw from a union at any time. They would then not be able to benefit from the negotiations of the union, of course. They should not expect it, no. Would you also agree that anything gained by personal negotiation doesn’t need to be extended to anyone else? > [@](#): > > I do value personal choice, and I also value honoring the oaths one has taken. And I suspect that we have different ideas of what “pressure” is going to mean in this situation, as I’d have no problem with reminding someone to honor the oath they took to abide by the decisions of the membership. If it were only a verbal reminder to a member then fine. > [@](#): > > Again, I can’t support this statement as I think we have very different ideas of what would constitute pressuring or intimidating. I think it would be wrong to burn someone’s house down and eat their children, but verbally reminding someone of their responsibilities that they voluntarily undertook is fine. Heck, my union even levies fines if people are found to have abrogated certain of their responsibilities in an egregious manner. Well you leave a ocean of intermediate possibilities here. I would only go as far as a verbal reminder. Anything else is unacceptable and would probably constitute gross misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/22 "2011-07-14T15:13:13Z")
> [@villa](#): > > You ARE talking about abolishing freedom of association - you just don’t realize it. Then enlighten me, where have I advocated abolishing freedom of association? > [@](#): > > If it is negotiated between the employer and the union representing the workers, then I don’t think government should intervene to prevent such a private relationship. So someone with the relevant skills would only be able to work for such an organisation if they were willing to join that union? You don’t see anything inherently unfair in such a demand? The adherence to a political position and membership of political organisation as a condition of employment? I think you and I have different views on what freedom and democracy mean…and I suspect that by any relevant measure you choose to use, I’d be the socialist in this debate! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/23 "2011-07-14T15:18:47Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Yes and yes. Of course when and how you choose to do these things will effect how easy and painless it is. To jilt a woman at the altar is a dickish thing to do. To reject a proposal is not. That’s not what I asked. I asked if, once you’ve taken a vow of marriage, a person was free to choose when to respect the vows they took. Clearly the answer is no, they aren’t. Those vows need to be respected at all times, not just when it’s convenient or easy. > [@Novelty Bubble](#): > > Would you also agree that anything gained by personal negotiation doesn’t need to be extended to anyone else? Need to be extended by who? What are you talking about? > [@Novelty Bubble](#): > > Well you leave a ocean of intermediate possibilities here. I would only go as far as a verbal reminder. Anything else is unacceptable and would probably constitute gross misconduct. So a look of disdain would be unacceptable? How about telling other people what the transgressor did? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/24 "2011-07-14T15:20:23Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Then enlighten me, where have I advocated abolishing freedom of association? > > So someone with the relevant skills would only be able to work for such an organisation if they were willing to join that union? > You don’t see anything inherently unfair in such a demand? The adherence to a political position and membership of political organisation as a condition of employment? > I think you and I have different views on what freedom and democracy mean…and I suspect that by any relevant measure you choose to use, I’d be the socialist in this debate! As has been established law for many years now, an employer is free to insist that his employees become members of a union. There isn’t anything unfair about it; if you don’t like the conditions of employment, you are free to seek employment elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/25 "2011-07-14T15:20:40Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Well, since you’re the one who keeps talking in absolutes about not pressuring and not intimidating, why don’t you clarify for us what you think _is_ acceptable. Or do you think that nothing is acceptable, as you’re previously written? No verbal recriminations? No shunning? No looks of disapproval? I’ve clarified what I consider acceptable in my previous message. When you talk “verbal recriminations” of “shunning” and “looks of disapproval” I have to wonder whether we are talking about a workplace here or a primary school. Behaving in that way to someone who merely disagrees with you is not acceptable. It certainly isn’t professional, it is barely even adult. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/26 "2011-07-14T15:23:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’ve clarified what I consider acceptable in my previous message. > > When you talk “verbal recriminations” of “shunning” and “looks of disapproval” I have to wonder whether we are talking about a workplace here or a primary school. > > Behaving in that way to someone who merely disagrees with you is not acceptable. It certainly isn’t professional, it is barely even adult. I completely disagree and wonder why it is you want to abrogate people’s right to express disagreement, disdain and/or disappointment as they see fit. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/27 "2011-07-14T15:26:51Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > That’s not what I asked. I asked if, once you’ve taken a vow of marriage, a person was free to choose when to respect the vows they took. Clearly the answer is no, they aren’t. Those vows need to be respected at all times, not just when it’s convenient or easy. If they can’t respect the vows then they should withdraw from that contract. They are not bound by them in perpetuity because situations, people and organisations change. > [@](#): > > Need to be extended by who? What are you talking about? If I as a non-union member manage to negotiate favourable terms for myself then union members should not expect them to be extended to them. > [@](#): > > So a look of disdain would be unacceptable? How about telling other people what the transgressor did? Correct, those behaviours would be unacceptable and potential grounds for gross misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/28 "2011-07-14T15:30:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I completely disagree and wonder why it is you want to abrogate people’s right to express disagreement, disdain and/or disappointment as they see fit. In the workplace all sorts of behaviours have to be moderated in order to allow for smooth running. We aren’t free to always behave as our gut reactions tell us. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/29 "2011-07-14T15:32:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > As has been established law for many years now, an employer is free to insist that his employees become members of a union. There isn’t anything unfair about it; if you don’t like the conditions of employment, you are free to seek employment elsewhere. Well, not in the UK thankfully. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/30 "2011-07-14T15:34:43Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Why should their be no repercussions? Decisions have repercussions all the time. A union should be completely free to expel a member for not participating in a strike. Union members should be completely free to ostracize a fellow employee (member or not) who refuses to participate in a strike. In that same vein, should employers be completely free to fire any employees that strike? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/31 "2011-07-14T15:37:59Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If they can’t respect the vows then they should withdraw from that contract. They are not bound by them in perpetuity because situations, people and organisations change. Yes, they are bound by them in perpetuity until and unless they withdraw. If you are a union member, you are bound by your oath, just as a married person is bound by their oath. Your attempt to dance around this concept isn’t very convincing. > [@Novelty Bubble](#): > > If I as a non-union member manage to negotiate favourable terms for myself then union members should not expect them to be extended to them. This strawman is bizarre and seems to have no bearing on anything under discussion here. > [@Novelty Bubble](#): > > Correct, those behaviours would be unacceptable and potential grounds for gross misconduct. I disagree completely. Until you can show that they rise to such a level as to make the workplace a hostile environment, people are free to show disagreement with each other in many ways. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/32 "2011-07-14T15:43:51Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Then enlighten me, where have I advocated abolishing freedom of association? Preventing people from ostracizing others is impinging on their freedom of association. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > So someone with the relevant skills would only be able to work for such an organisation if they were willing to join that union? > You don’t see anything inherently unfair in such a demand? The adherence to a political position and membership of political organisation as a condition of employment? No I don’t, not if it is privately negotiated. I also don’t see a problem with an employer requiring a person attended college, for example. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think you and I have different views on what freedom and democracy mean…and I suspect that by any relevant measure you choose to use, I’d be the socialist in this debate! I am not here to get into a pissing match over who is a socialist or not. You don’t know my views, other than my support for organized labor. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/33 "2011-07-14T15:45:37Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > In that same vein, should employers be completely free to fire any employees that strike? Actually, I have always supported the old UK system of voluntarism. I’d support a return to allowing that, combined with a roll back of the witch Thatcher’s assaults on workers’ rights. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/34 "2011-07-14T15:53:38Z")
Getting back to the OP, I’d say striking is not a form of gambling. Gambling is when you’re betting on some external event like a hand of cards, a roll of dice, or the outcome of a sporting event. Even buying stocks could be considered a gamble. But a strike is not an external event - the striker is part of it. He may gain or lose based on the outcome but that outcome will be determined in part by his own efforts. It’s no more a gamble than owning his own business is a gamble - another situation where his efforts will partially determine how much money he makes. Or suppose he were a professional boxer - would he be gambling if he fought in a championship? He’ll make money if he wins the fight. But it’s not gambling because he’ll earn that money by winning. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/35 "2011-07-14T16:01:57Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > As has been established law for many years now, an employer is free to insist that his employees become members of a union. There isn’t anything unfair about it; if you don’t like the conditions of employment, you are free to seek employment elsewhere. This is not the case as I understand it - even in a union shop a person may choose not to belong to the union, and the employer may not terminate that person for that reason so long as the requisite dues or fees are up to date. Any agreement otherwise would interfere with the employee’s First Amendment right to free association. Keep in mind that the closed shop, which arrangement you have described above, has been illegal since the Taft-Hartley Act was passed more than sixty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/36 "2011-07-14T16:03:10Z")
When the “strike” was first invented the authorities (automatically, apparently, despite the absence of relevant laws) regarded it as a form of **rebellion.** ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/37 "2011-07-14T16:13:22Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > This is not the case as I understand it - even in a union shop a person may choose not to belong to the union, and the employer may not terminate that person for that reason so long as the requisite dues or fees are up to date. > > Any agreement otherwise would interfere with the employee’s First Amendment right to free association. > > Keep in mind that the closed shop, which arrangement you have described above, has been illegal since the Taft-Hartley Act was passed more than sixty years ago. What I described is not a “closed shop”; it is a sitation that exists today all over the US. As I said, an employer is free to make union membership a condition of employment if they wish, just as they are free to make completion of college a condition of employment, or a host of other conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/38 "2011-07-14T16:54:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > What I described is not a “closed shop”; it is a sitation that exists today all over the US. As I said, an employer is free to make union membership a condition of employment if they wish, just as they are free to make completion of college a condition of employment, or a host of other conditions. > [@](#): > > The NLRA allows employers and unions to enter into union-security agreements, which require all employees in a bargaining unit to become union members and begin paying union dues and fees within 30 days of being hired. > > Even under a security agreement, employees who object to full union membership may continue as ‘core’ members and pay only that share of dues used directly for representation, such as collective bargaining and contract administration. Known as objectors, they are no longer full members but are still protected by the union contract. Unions are obligated to tell all covered employees about this option, which was created by a Supreme Court ruling and is known as the Beck right. > > An employee may object to union membership on religious grounds, but in that case, must pay an amount equal to dues to a nonreligious charitable organization. > > More than 20 states have banned union-security agreements by passing so-called “right to work” laws. In these states, it is up to each employee at a workplace to decide whether or not to join the union and pay dues, even though all workers are protected by the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the union. These states include Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia and Wyoming. [From here.](http://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/employee-rights) All over the US? No, not in right to work states. And even apart from that, workers may decide to become “core” members and not full-fledged members even in a union shop. You might want to brush up on all this. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/39 "2011-07-14T16:59:15Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > [From here.](http://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/employee-rights) > > All over the US? No, not in right to work states. And even apart from that, workers may decide to become “core” members and not full-fledged members even in a union shop. > > You might want to brush up on all this. Yes, all over the US. In right to work states, employers are still free to enter into any union agreement they want to. And your attempt to draw some sort of line whereby you declare that core members are somehow not members is laughable. I stand by what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988/40 "2011-07-14T16:59:32Z")
I don’t think Bobble actually knows a lot about unions firsthand. Have you even been in one? I’ve been in one for about 10 yrs (maybe even the same one as the OP, as we are in troubled negotiations as well. Hey, Brother!). We’ve always had the option here to pay, or not, union dues. If you don’t pay, you don’t get union representation if you are disciplined, seems to be the major upshot of not paying. There ain’t no strong-arming here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-striking-a-form-of-gambling/588988.md?page=3)