# Is "strong, confident woman" the female version of Nice Guy? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002 "2017-07-11T15:02:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002/81 "2017-07-15T23:21:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I was thinking from an anthropological perspective. I’m not so much talking about what we consciously decide to do, but things that drive us subconsciously. Things we do because we evolved to be that kind of being, and some of those things vary depending on the gender of the individual. But, just to be clear, I’m not at all saying those two things (conscious and subconscious) are completely separable and don’t overlap in important ways. I think it’s very difficult to parse them out. I’m probably solidly in the 50/50 camp when it comes to biology and environment, but it’s also a false dichotomy, because due to epigenetics, our environment actually shapes our genetic expression. When it comes to the gender stuff, I think it doesn’t really matter _why_ we do it, as long as it’s what we want to do and we aren’t hurting other people. Human brains are just weird. I was reading an article about diet and fitness, and apparently being on a diet has a placebo effect, to the extent that you’ll lose more weight if you get the high calorie drink, as long as you think it’s the low calorie one. Who knows why we do anything? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002/82 "2017-07-15T23:58:53Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I think it’s very difficult to parse them out. I’m probably solidly in the 50/50 camp when it comes to biology and environment, but it’s also a false dichotomy, because due to epigenetics, our environment actually shapes our genetic expression. When it comes to the gender stuff, I think it doesn’t really matter _why_ we do it, as long as it’s what we want to do and we aren’t hurting other people. Yes, this stuff is complicated. But there are some things that we can expect are true even if we don’t know the details. That men and women will have different strategies when seeking out mates is one of them. And we can expect that each gender has a different strategy (or different strategies over time) when seeking out long term mates vs seeking out sexual partners. > [@](#): > > Human brains are just weird. I was reading an article about diet and fitness, and apparently being on a diet has a placebo effect, to the extent that you’ll lose more weight if you get the high calorie drink, as long as you think it’s the low calorie one. > > Who knows why we do anything? You say weird, I say complex. But we don’t need to know why something happens to know that it happens. And yeah, I heard about the diet experiment. Things can get even “weirder” than that. Turns out that the placebo effect happens even when the subjects know they are taking a placebo vs “the real thing”. How weird is that! ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002/83 "2017-07-16T15:26:58Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > The thing is… I don’t view most women as weak. So I am having a hard time wrapping my head around what a ‘‘strong’’ woman is. People have called me strong, but I am neither loud, obnoxious, nor particularly assertive, so I have nothing in common with the woman in the OP. The difference is that (I assume) you don’t go around repeatedly saying to the world, “I am a strong, confident woman!” That’s who I think the OP is talking about, not women who just get on with what life throws at them. I had a giggle at your description of the use of the term “man brain”. I’ve long thought that I have one of those as well. At any party, I’ll be over with the guys talking politics and tech stuff, and it’s been that way forever. The more “feminine” discussions of who said what to whom and then they did this and blah blah blah, I don’t care about. I think it’s just about what each person prefers, but a good deal of the choices are based on societal norms; I think people don’t challenge them because of “what will other people think?”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002/84 "2017-07-16T16:11:11Z")
Nobody who often claims to be “confident” is confident. Nobody who keep saying they’re “strong” is strong. Nobody who keeps drawing your attention to their being “nice” is nice. If a person actually is something, they don’t have to keep convincing everyone of it. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002/85 "2017-07-16T16:25:52Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Nobody who often claims to be “confident” is confident. Nobody who keep saying they’re “strong” is strong. Nobody who keeps drawing your attention to their being “nice” is nice. Exactly. I like to call it “unlikely insistence”. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002/86 "2017-07-16T19:37:06Z")
AKA “compensatory bullshit”. Big dogs walk quietly; little dogs yap. Don’t be a human little dog. Avoid or shun other human little dogs when you find them. Life is easier and _much_ more pleasant that way. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002/87 "2017-07-16T21:04:00Z")
If I may defend the villains a bit - it’s an awfully narrow tightrope, these days, for a guy to raise valid points about some women going for bad guys, or not liking docile/tame characteristics, without immediately being accused of being a “nice guy.” These complaints raised by guys are not without basis - there are, for instance, some [women who have a crush-obsession with the Columbine school shooters](https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/3dx93w/the-columbine-shooters-the-girls-who-love-them-and-me), [women who send love letters to serial-killer Charles Manson](http://missmillmag.com/relationships/women-who-love-killers/), etc. Many “nice guys” who are perceived as whiny or passive-aggressive, are, in fact, telling the truth. They may not be telling the truth in the most ideal way, but many of their claims have factual basis. Conversely, there are some women who \*are \*in a situation where they have to speak their mind because something in company policy, or some social setting, is constantly awry and someone has to speak up. Or some women do have to tackle problems in an aggressive manner. But they will quickly be perceived as bossy or jerk-ish. What is she to do, just allow the problems to go unaddressed? There are no easy or ideal solutions. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2017, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002/88 "2017-07-17T02:20:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > If I may defend the villains a bit - it’s an awfully narrow tightrope, these days, for a guy to raise valid points about some women going for bad guys, or not liking docile/tame characteristics, without immediately being accused of being a “nice guy.” These complaints raised by guys are not without basis - there are, for instance, some [women who have a crush-obsession with the Columbine school shooters](https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/3dx93w/the-columbine-shooters-the-girls-who-love-them-and-me), [women who send love letters to serial-killer Charles Manson](http://missmillmag.com/relationships/women-who-love-killers/), etc. Many “nice guys” who are perceived as whiny or passive-aggressive, are, in fact, telling the truth. They may not be telling the truth in the most ideal way, but many of their claims have factual basis. > > Conversely, there are some women who \*are \*in a situation where they have to speak their mind because something in company policy, or some social setting, is constantly awry and someone has to speak up. Or some women do have to tackle problems in an aggressive manner. But they will quickly be perceived as bossy or jerk-ish. What is she to do, just allow the problems to go unaddressed? > > There are no easy or ideal solutions. I would never say it’s “easy”. But to the nice guys you describe, I would tell them they need to stop portraying themselves as put-upon victims simply because a tiny fraction of women dig psycho killers, as if this means anything. It doesn’t. Just like how a tiny fraction of men digging morbidly obese does not signify anything meaningful about how men feel about women. If I heard a Nice Guy talking this kind of shit, I’d be wondering if he thinks my lack of attraction towards him indicates that I must be attracted to Charles Manson, which would make me want to disregard everything else he has to say. To the strong, confident woman you describe, I would tell her that she doesn’t need to speak her mind in any and every situation. It is okay for people to be wrong, especially if the wrongness is trivial and isn’t going to hurt anyone. Yes, sometimes you have to be aggressive. But you don’t have to be aggressive all the time. If she doesn’t know how to turn it down when the situation calls for it, she needs to concede that she’s going to turn off most people. I agree that sometimes a Nice Guy really is a nice guy, and sometimes the Strong, Confident woman is really strong and confident. But I don’t think the characters you describe are completely blameless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-strong-confident-woman-the-female-version-of-nice-guy/791002.md?page=4)