# Is Subsaharan Africa lagging behind New Guinea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865 "2011-04-10T13:25:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/41 "2011-04-10T18:18:10Z")
I like the idea behind this… “Show me a successful African country.” “Botswana!” “That doesn’t count because it’s an outlier! I meant show me a successful unsuccessful African country!” “???” Pinguin, I don’t know if you’ve really earned a pitting, but I [made you one anyway](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13671774#post13671774). ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/42 "2011-04-10T18:21:50Z")
Me? A troll? Because I made a question about the failure of Africa? How ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/43 "2011-04-10T18:28:26Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Paupa New Guinea has its own advantages though. It is rich in natural resources and is close to several developed economies with markets for those resources. > > But regardless of reasons, I’d say the answer to the question in the OP is “no”. SS Africa is not lagging behind New Guinea. If New Guinea were part of Africa, it would be more or less in the “middle of the pack” compared to its neighbors and wouldn’t stand out as being particularly economically successful. I believe you, and agree, giving the evidence shown in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/44 "2011-04-10T18:40:50Z")
Equatorial Guinea is a weird case, a tiny country - it’s much smaller than Switzerland - with a lot of oil, but few people benefit from it. So while the average resident is doing pretty well, the great majority of its citizens are just as badly off as the folks in Tanzania, because the people on top steal all the oil money. Batswana are legitimately better off, on the whole, for predictable reasons; stable, more or less democratic government, rule of law, and a small, professional army that doesn’t stick its nose in civilian matters (in fact, for quite some time Botswana didn’t even bother to have an army at all, until forced into it by South African aggression.) ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/45 "2011-04-10T18:49:00Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I like the idea behind this… > > “Show me a successful African country.” > “Botswana!” > “That doesn’t count because it’s an outlier! I meant show me a successful unsuccessful African country!” > “???” I never meant to imply Botswana wasn’t a typical African country; I only meant to note that its presence on the per capita GDP graph of countries **Simplicio** selected was so out of scale with the other countries _from that particular selection_ that it made it difficult to see, _on that particular graph_, what was going on with the other countries. My goal in this thread was simply to modify that particular graph in accordance with what was apparently being asked for, without taking any position or stating any interpretation of the data. I have failed. I recognize in retrospect the blunder I made (if I wanted to avoid being perceived as offering an interpretation, I shouldn’t have used the term “outlier”), but, please, forget I ever offered a Botswana-less graph; I didn’t mean anything by it, except as an augmentation of the previous graph for readability. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/46 "2011-04-10T19:12:29Z")
Hehe. No problem, I get it now, I just didn’t read carefully enough. Woooo go Botswana! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/47 "2011-04-10T19:16:08Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Me? A troll? Because I made a question about the failure of Africa? > > How ridiculous. Mind the gap when stepping out: By per capita income, and while looking at the life expectancy, New Guinea is behind several sub Saharan nations. Ahead of New Guinea we have Sudan, Namibia, South Africa, Equatorial Guinea, Botswana, Gabon, Mauritius, and if we include north Africa, we get more like Morocco, Algeria, Egypt and several others. [Gapminder Tools](http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=f;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=5.59290322580644;ti=2009$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj1jiMAkmq1iMg;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj2tPLxKvvnNPA;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL_n5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=295;dataMax=79210$map_y;scale=lin;dataMin=19;dataMax=86$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=i173_n,,adad;i141_r,,,,,,;i153_r,,,,,,;i67_r,,,,,,;i28_r,,,,,,;i79_r,,,,,,;i209_r,,,,,,;i213_r,,,,,), ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/48 "2011-04-10T19:44:24Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > both lacked the wheel before the Europeans came, for instance. Bullshit. Nubians had chariots when most of Europe was still in the Neolithic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/49 "2011-04-10T19:49:13Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > [No it wouldn’t](http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:PNG&dl=en&hl=en&q=papua+new+guinea+gdp#met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:PNG:BWA:KEN:ZMB:TZA:SEN) I like[this one](http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:PNG&dl=en&hl=en&q=papua+new+guinea+gdp#met=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&idim=country:PNG:BWA:KEN:ZMB:TZA:SEN:ZAF)😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/50 "2011-04-10T19:50:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Bullshit. Nubians had chariots when most of Europe was still in the Neolithic. The wheel was an invention of Neolithic Europe. From there, it spread to other places, including Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/51 "2011-04-10T19:52:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Bullshit. Nubians had chariots when most of Europe was still in the Neolithic. How sub-Saharan are the Nubians, though? Wasn’t most of Kush in what’s now the Sahara? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/52 "2011-04-10T20:56:05Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Me? A troll? Because I made a question about the failure of Africa? > > How ridiculous. NO. You appear to be trolling because you have based your question on statements that are pretty clearly wrong regarding the relative development of different regions in the world, (your “tribal” and “Tarzan” comment can be most charitably be described as stupid), and you have denied cited references without providing anything to support your odd claims while making further assertions that remain unsupported. At this point, it would appear that you are attempting to get someone to confirm your bias that Africans are not sufficiently intelligent while hiding behind a claim of “just asking questions.” That you persist in the face of factual evidence without even changing your claims is evidence of trolling. I will permit this thread to cointinue for a bit, provided you begin to pay attention to what is actually posted and provide something more like genuine evidence for your claims. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/53 "2011-04-10T21:11:03Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Anecdotally I would say that Africa is well ahead of New Guinea. While Africa has many troubled regions, it also has numerous perfectly functional democracies that are largely safe, crime free and advancing such as Botswana. In contrast none of the New Guinean states are functionally democratic and none of them are safe. But as I noted above, there is simply no sensible way to compare the two regions. Botswana has a murder rate that is 12 per 100,000 inhabitants. That is low for sub Saharan Africa, but higher than 5 per 100,000 inhabitants, which is the murder rate in the United States. > **[List of countries by intentional homicide rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)** > > The list of countries by homicide rate is derived from United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) data, and is expressed in number of deaths per 100,000 population per year. For example, a homicide rate of 30 out of 100,000 is presented in the table as "30", and corresponds to 0.03% of the population dying by homicide. The reliability of underlying national murder rate data may vary. Only UNODC-vetted data is used in the main table to maintain consistency. In some cases, i Homicide rates ... This is what the State Department has to say about Botswana. CRIME: Crime is a serious concern in Botswana. Visitors must be vigilant and take common-sense security precautions. The criminal threat is very similar to that of any large urban area. Petty street crime and crimes of opportunity, primarily the theft of money and personal property, are not uncommon. Home invasions, ‘smash and grabs’ from vehicles, and cell phone thefts, often at knife point, are routinely reported to the police. Visitors should use care when talking on a cell phone while walking. Visitors are urged to exercise caution near the Gaborone Dam and Kgale Hill in Gaborone, especially at dusk or after dark due to the number of criminal incidents over the years. > **[404 - Page Not Found](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/404.html)** ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/54 "2011-04-10T21:37:58Z")
We’ve done this before. The State Department also cheerfully warns you about [outlaw motorcycle gangs](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1100.html#crime) in Denmark, [Bulgarian champagne scams](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1074.html#crime), the [dangers of taking the subway](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1116.html#crime) to the airport in Paris, and [drugged drinks](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_982.html#crime) in the Netherlands. Every country has a crime section. Advising travelers on taking “common sense security precautions,” treating urban areas “like any other urban area” and not hanging around the most dangerous areas at night is about as mild as the security warnings come. Botswana is still a relatively poor place with some serious income disparities. You are going to find crime, especially towards relatively rich outsiders, just as you would in an poor place, including any large American city. [Canada’s](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_982.html#crime) information sheet on the US is pretty amusing though. Be careful in Florida! Watch out for riots! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/55 "2011-04-10T22:24:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The wheel was an invention of Neolithic Europe. No, it wasn’t. Smart money is on Mesopotamia. > [@](#): > > From there, it spread to other places, including Africa. The statement wasn’t about who \*invented \*the wheel, it was about its \*occurence \*in pre-colonial Africa. I never claimed Africans \*invented \*the wheel. [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] How sub-Saharan are the Nubians, though? [/quote] Very. They were black Africans. Even though that’s an incredibly pointless question, as we’ve been trying to point out in these threads repeatedly - the Sahara is not some kind of wall between N Africa and the rest of it. Especially not with the world’s longest river cutting right through it. > [@](#): > > Wasn’t most of Kush in what’s now the Sahara? No. It was in the Sahel, Nile Valley and the Sudan Savannah regions. None of those is the Sahara proper. \*Parts \*of it _are_ now in the southern Sahara but that’s because the desert moved, not the people. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/56 "2011-04-10T23:39:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, it wasn’t. Smart money is on Mesopotamia.The statement wasn’t about who \*invented \*the wheel, it was about its \*occurence \*in pre-colonial Africa. I never claimed Africans \*invented \*the wheel. Could be Mesopotamia, but more early sites have been found in Europe. Not really a big deal, except that you said Nubians were using the wheel while most of Europe was in the Neolithic. But the wheel was a Neolithic invention, so that really doesn’t mean much. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/57 "2011-04-10T23:40:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The wheel was an invention of Neolithic Europe. From there, it spread to other places, including Africa. Nope. It wasn’t European or African at all. The wheel was invented in Mesopotamia, in Ur, and from there it spread to then backwards regions like Europe and Egypt. But the wheel was unknow in most tropical and southern Africa by European arrival. In Kenya it was unknown, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/58 "2011-04-10T23:44:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > and if we include north Africa, we get more like Morocco, Algeria, Egypt and several others. Please, don’t include the northern region. We are talking about SS Africa here as the title of the thread says, not about Russia or Mongolia. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/59 "2011-04-10T23:46:59Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Nope. It wasn’t European or African at all. The wheel was invented in Mesopotamia, in Ur, and from there it spread to then backwards regions like Europe and Egypt. > > But the wheel was unknow in most tropical and southern Africa by European arrival. In Kenya it was unknown, for instance. It’s been clearly demonstrated that you were wrong in your claim about Africa and the wheel. Stop quibbling. “Well, there were parts of African that didn’t have the wheel,” is not a counterargument. You were wrong. Acknowledge that, and move on. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/60 "2011-04-10T23:51:57Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > NO. You appear to be trolling because you have based your question on statements that are pretty clearly wrong regarding the relative development of different regions in the world, (your “tribal” and “Tarzan” comment can be most charitably be described as stupid), and you have denied cited references without providing anything to support your odd claims while making further assertions that remain unsupported. > > At this point, it would appear that you are attempting to get someone to confirm your bias that Africans are not sufficiently intelligent while hiding behind a claim of “just asking questions.” That you persist in the face of factual evidence without even changing your claims is evidence of trolling. > > I will permit this thread to cointinue for a bit, provided you begin to pay attention to what is actually posted and provide something more like genuine evidence for your claims. > > [/Moderating] You are accusing me of being a troll for saying SS Africa was a region of tribes. Even today, SS African tribes are strong. So, you are condemning me for saying the truth. I oppened the thread about two regions that started from very disadvantaged beginnings and what I found? (1) Denial: arguments to show SS Africa was a very developed region in ancient times, which is not true. (2) Feeling insulted: just for saying SS Africa has done poorly economically with respect to most of the world. I compared SS Africa with New Guinea simply because it was fairer to do so. Comparing that region with East Asia, that developed at striking speed, would have been considered racist. Come on. Haven’t you see the news? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=4)