# Is Subsaharan Africa lagging behind New Guinea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865 "2011-04-10T13:25:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/61 "2011-04-10T23:53:34Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > It’s been clearly demonstrated that you were wrong in your claim about Africa and the wheel. > > Stop quibbling. “Well, there were parts of African that didn’t have the wheel,” is not a counterargument. You were wrong. Acknowledge that, and move on. Did Kokuyus, Zulus or Bantues had wheels when contacted? Please, stop the denial show. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/62 "2011-04-10T23:57:24Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Did Kokuyus, Zulus or Bantues had wheels when contacted? Please, stop the denial show. You said: “both lacked the wheel before the Europeans came” which is factually incorrect. The only one in de-Nile is you. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/63 "2011-04-11T00:00:14Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Did Kokuyus, Zulus or Bantues had wheels when contacted? Please, stop the denial show. Oh, Omar. Is it a sore point with you that none of the great Native American civilizations had the wheel? It doesn’t make them any less great. And nobody here besides our resident racialists looks down on Latinos. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/64 "2011-04-11T00:07:04Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > You are accusing me of being a troll for saying SS Africa was a region of tribes. > Even today, SS African tribes are strong. So, you are condemning me for saying the truth. I am not. I have no problem with the idea that there are tribal societies in Africa. I have noted some of them, myself. There are also triabl societies in many other parts of the world. What I noted that there are multiple parts of your posting in this thread that suggest trolling, including, but hardly limited to, the phrasing of your rather stupid comment that employed the words “tribal” and “Tarzan.” > [@pinguin](#): > > I oppened the thread about two regions that started from very disadvantaged beginnings and what I found? What you were then shown–and have determinedly refused to acknowledge–is that the “disadvantages” were not equal, the remedies were not equal, (and cannot be fairly compared due to enormous differences in scale), and that the results are, at best ambiguous. You do not have any requirement beyond sense to be persuaded by the information provided you, but when you continue to repeat the same assertions without providing any evidence for your position, you provide a suggestion that you are trolling. Do not try to change what I have posted by quoting it incompletely and then responding to what I have not posted. You are free to continue your argument, but I strongly urge you to actually pay attention to the evidence against you and to respond to that. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/65 "2011-04-11T00:07:59Z")
@Belowjob2.0 Indeed. Nobody denies Amerindian civilizations lacked the wheel. The wheel was brough by Europeans together with the wheeled machinery (clocks, for example, and cranes) I would never exagerate what our natives had before the European arrived. Everybody knows here a mule is better than a llama, and riding a horse is better than walking. We know Europeans brought rice, cheese, wine, beer and a thousand of other products. We know Europeans brought writing and modern math. We know Europeans had better ships than anything invented in the Americas. We know Europeans changed some brutal customs in the region, such as human sacrifices. We know Europeans unified the region spreading theirs language, transforming it from a Babelian cacophony to something unified. Remember that North American Indians had to resort to sign language to understand each other!! We don’t venerate Europeans, and know theirs crimes, but it is absurd to change history to fullfill our desires. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/66 "2011-04-11T00:12:13Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > What you were then shown–and have determinedly refused to acknowledge–is that the “disadvantages” were not equal, the remedies were not equal, (and cannot be fairly compared due to enormous differences in scale), and that the results are, at best ambiguous. Mod. Can you imagine a more disadvantaged people to integrate to the modern world than the indigenous people of New Guinea? They lived in the neolythic and canibalism was widespread when westerners arrived. However, they had managed to change and progress a lot from those humble beginnings, without complaining. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/67 "2011-04-11T00:20:19Z")
> [@](#): > > We don’t venerate Europeans, and know theirs crimes, but it is absurd to change history to fullfill our desires. You mean like pretending iron age civilizations with complex political organziation are the same as stone aged societies? Or claiming that the jet black Nubians who spoke a Nilo Saharan language sharing a common origin with the Dinka, Nuer, and Luo, weren’t really Africans? > [@](#): > > However, they had managed to change and progress a lot from those humble beginnings, without complaining. Damn those Africans! They just won’t shut up. We never hear from New Guinea. Why can’t everybody have as little prominence on the world stage, damnit! ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/68 "2011-04-11T00:27:52Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Again. Please don’t try to convince me SS Africa was very advanced technologically while New Guinea wasn’t. So you some into a thread asking us why something is so, and then you tell us not to try to convince you of the facts? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Yes, SS Africa had iron, cows and goats, but the lifestyle of peoples like the Tutsies were similar. Similar to what? The only way that this statement makes sense is is you mean “similar to other people who also had the lifestyle of peoples like the Tutsies”. The lifestyle of the Tutsies is in no way similar to the lifestyle of the people in Great Zimbabwe, or the lifestyle of the people in Timbuktu or the lifestyle of the people in the Kalahari. > [@](#): > > They were traditional tribal peoples without much “progress” at all. What does that even mean? Progress compared to what? Are you seriously arguing that Tutsies had not made any progress at all for the last half million years? > [@](#): > > Beyond skin color (genetically they aren’t related), both lacked the wheel before the Europeans came, for instance. **pinguin** : These two groups have exactly the same technology **Blake** : No, they do not. Name a single item of technology shared by most of the people in each group **pinguin** : They both lack the wheel Well, yeah Dude, they both lack the wheel. And the both also lacked nuclear weapons, as do the people of modern Italy. Therefore 17th centruy Africa and New Guinea were both at exactly the same technology level as modern Italy. Right? After all we can ascertain technological similarity on the basis of technology that is _missing_. Right :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > And both groups lagged behind the rest of the world in science and technology. Please explain to us how they lagged behind the people of North America, South America and Australia. Because when a group is more advanced than three of the six inhabited continents, a statement that they lagged behind the rest of the world is rather obviously nonsense. > [@](#): > > I choose to compare SS Africa with New Guinea to avoid the “racial” biass, so common if we could compare SS Africa with Mongolia or another region What racial bias? I know of no such racial bias. > [@](#): > > Now, for what your arguments show SS Africa was more developed than New Guinea from the beginning. Then, how come New Guinea is leaving it behind? As my own references on GDP and the references of other others have proved, this is not true. New Guinea falls exactly in the middle of the African cluster by any metric you care to name except for AIDS related mortality. New Guinea demonstrably is not leaving Africa behind, nor is it being left behind. It is performing in a very average manner for a developing nation. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/69 "2011-04-11T00:35:31Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Mod. Can you imagine a more disadvantaged people to integrate to the modern world than the indigenous people of New Guinea? > They lived in the neolythic and canibalism was widespread when westerners arrived. > However, they had managed to change and progress a lot from those humble beginnings, without complaining. Yes, to exactly the degree as 50% of African regions have managed to change. Or to phrase that another way, they have not done nearly as well as most African regions. Now what was our point again? ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/70 "2011-04-11T00:38:40Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > You mean like pretending iron age civilizations with complex political organziation are the same as stone aged societies? Iron age civilizations? I am not going to start a debate on semantics :rolleyes: > [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Or claiming that the jet black Nubians who spoke a Nilo Saharan language sharing a common origin with the Dinka, Nuer, and Luo, weren’t really Africans? Claimming what? > [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Damn those Africans! They just won’t shut up. We never hear from New Guinea. Why can’t everybody have as little prominence on the world stage, damnit! What Africans? There are many kind of them. And, if you ask me, my favorite SS Africans are the modest Pigmey and Khoisan peoples, so much discriminated by the Bantu majority, that invaded theirs lands with cows and iron spears. And, of course, I see a great future for New Guinea. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/71 "2011-04-11T00:40:23Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > As my own references on GDP and the references of other others have proved, this is not true. New Guinea falls exactly in the middle of the African cluster by any metric you care to name except for AIDS related mortality. New Guinea demonstrably is not leaving Africa behind, nor is it being left behind. It is performing in a very average manner for a developing nation. I conceed that. You win. New Guinea is performing like Southern Africa. Deal? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/72 "2011-04-11T05:47:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Could be Mesopotamia, but more early sites have been found in Europe. Not really a big deal, except that you said Nubians were using the wheel while most of Europe was in the Neolithic. But the wheel was a Neolithic invention, so that really doesn’t mean much. No, I said Nubians were using \*chariots \*while Europe was in the Neolithic. The implication being that Nubia was a Bronze Age civilization while most of Europe was still just banging rocks together. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/73 "2011-04-11T05:48:30Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > But the wheel was unknow in\*\* most tropical and southern Africa\*\* by European arrival. In Kenya it was unknown, for instance. Keep moving those goalposts. Also, cite? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/74 "2011-04-11T05:55:22Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > I conceed that. You win. New Guinea is performing like Southern Africa. Deal? Call us when New Guinea builds a VLA, manufactures attack helicopters or has an Antarctic research station, m’kay? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/75 "2011-04-11T06:01:29Z")
Whoops,links: [VLA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_Kilometre_Array) [attack helicopters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rooivalk) [Antarctic research station](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SANAE) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/76 "2011-04-11T06:10:49Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > What Africans? There are many kind of them. And, if you ask me, my favorite SS Africans are the modest Pigmey and Khoisan peoples, so much discriminated by the Bantu majority, that invaded theirs lands with cows and iron spears. I don’t know about the Pigmeys[sic], but the Khoi of South Africa had both cows and iron \*before \*the Bantu migrations. Granted, they _mostly_ traded for the latter (except when they co-operatively helped in iron smelting, like in Angola), bulitht they were hardly all mesolithic HGs. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/77 "2011-04-11T06:30:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They were black Africans. I know that. I wasn’t questioning their race, just their geography. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/78 "2011-04-11T10:01:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I know that. I wasn’t questioning their race, just their geography. In that case, no, they were not exactly entirely _sub_-Saharan. They were _both Saharan and Sahelian, with an ethnic origin most likely in the Ethiopian Highlands and Southern Sudan (Sudanese Savannah and the Sudd wetlands), not the desert. Note that at the time of Nabta Playa and then the foundation of Nubia/Kush, this wasn’t such a big differentiator - it was during a particularly wet period, and they were on the Nile too. Cattle pastoralism just isn’t_ a desert lifestyle, it’s a savannah/plains one. Cattle, even African cattle, just aren’t as hardy as camels or goats. NE Africa just never had the N-S distinction it seems Western ethnographers want to impose. The Nile sees to that - it is a corridor for cultural transmission that supercedes any barrier the Sahara represents (which is also why I doubt the Sahara Pump theory’s usefulness for anatomically modern humans). I would ditch the Sahara as a reference point entirely and refer to both Kush and Dynastic Egypt as _Nilotic_ civilizations. \*Entirely \*African, homegrown and complete in their own selves. Partaking in inventions from foreign civs, sure, but culturally African, not “Fertile Crescent” - their gods were the gods of Cattle and the River (Crocodiles, Hippos, Ibis) and of Savannah (Lions, Jackals, Vultures) _and_ the Desert (Sun, Scorpion, Cobras, Vultures). Just looking at the origins of the Egyptian/Kushite pantheon makes any theory of largely Asian or European influence laughable. These were not a Mediterranean people like the Carthagians or Greeks. They were a people of the Nile, always and foremost. And the Nile stretches way beyond the delta. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/79 "2011-04-11T12:06:51Z")
Well, I for one have been convinced by this thread. Africans are teh stupid because of their slow economic growth, excluding of course the countries experiencing fast economic growth. If only they were like the hard-working Papuan people, which have in recent years experienced good economic growth, after a very long history of poor growth. Is this right? Is this the argument? ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/80 "2011-04-11T12:28:36Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > You mean like pretending iron age civilizations with complex political organziation are the same as stone aged societies? Or claiming that the jet black Nubians who spoke a Nilo Saharan language sharing a common origin with the Dinka, Nuer, and Luo, weren’t really Africans? Or pretending analphabet tribal peoples living in huts are technological advanced just because they had iron. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=5)