# Is Subsaharan Africa lagging behind New Guinea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865 "2011-04-10T13:25:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/101 "2011-04-11T16:16:21Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Or pretending analphabet tribal peoples living in huts are technological advanced just because they had iron. Ironworking is a technology. You’re setting up a false dichotomy here. There aren’t “technologically advanced” peoples and “non-technologically advanced” peoples. There are a whole bunch of technologies that cultures either learn or not. And, of course, modern Africa has pretty much the same technology as any other continent. There are MRI machines in Abuja, and there’s wifi in Nairobi. And when you say “tribal peoples”, what do you mean? Do the ancient Romans count as tribal? I think you need to make sure to define your terms, because you can call highlander New Guineans “tribal”, the Sioux “tribal”, and the Zulu “tribal”, but the three groups have a very different societal structure and way of life. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/102 "2011-04-11T17:12:22Z")
Tribal peoples= peoples that lived in small societies, either nomadic or settled in a place. Theirs numbers usually didn’t exceed the thousand individuals. It was not unknown among tribal peoples to have networks of tribes connected together in case of external agression. This is in contrast to peoples living in large societies and states based on urban development. Yes, I know there was some urban development in SS Africa, in Nigeria, Ghana, Mali and in places like Mozanbique and Zimbabwe, and I don’t include in the equation states like Ethiopia. I don’t deny those achievements at all. But for the most part SS Africa was tribal up to the arrival of Europeans. Now, when I remark the relative backwardness of the origin of Africa I am just justifying how hard it was, and it is, for that continent to catch up the rest of the world, that started with advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/103 "2011-04-11T17:30:08Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Tribal peoples= peoples that lived in small societies, either nomadic or settled in a place. Theirs numbers usually didn’t exceed the thousand individuals. Do you have a cite that the majority of people in SS Africa lived in political units of less then a thousand? Given the much higher densities of organized agricultural societies, I’d be pretty surprised if they were outnumbered by hunter gatherers or small isolated agricultural groups. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/104 "2011-04-11T18:07:31Z")
My bolding > [@pinguin](#): > > I said\*\* no Wheels existed **in SS Africa.With exceptions, that is true for** most of\*\* the region, **except for its borders**. Laaaadeeez and Gennulmen, One Weeeeek Only! Come see the amazing Pied Weasel, performing for your delight. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/105 "2011-04-11T18:28:55Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > I thought wagons / chariots were hypothesized to have arisen in easternmost Ukraine into Central Asia among the horse using nomadic peoples of the Eurasian steppe, and have diffused down into the fertile crescent? I seem to have read it once. > > If that’s so, I suppose we have to say what is meant by Europe… My understanding is that there may actually have been two different forms of “chariot” involved - the first a heavy cart-like structure with solid wooden wheels used as a platform for guys wielding hand weapons, and developed in Mesepotamia; and the other, a much lighter vehicle with spoked wheels, used as a platform for archers. The latter was by far the more revolutionary of the two, used tactically much as the (later) steppe light cavalry, and initially used by much the same sort of folks - steppe nomads. The former type of vehicle predated the chariot, but made much less impact on warfare - whereas the early chariot cavalry proper was, at least initially, unstoppable. See the Standard of Ur for mesopotamian “chariots” (more like armed farm-carts): > **[File:Standard of Ur - War.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Standard_of_Ur_-_War.jpg)** > > If you think this file should be featured on Wikimedia Commons as well, feel free to nominate it. > If you have an image of similar quality that can be published under a suitable copyright license, be sure to upload it, tag it, and nominate it. > This work is in the public domain in its country of origin and other countries and areas where the copyright term is the author's life plus 100 years or fewer. > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. Chariots proper (in this case, Egyptian): > **[File:Ramses II at Kadesh.jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ramses_II_at_Kadesh.jpg)** > > Description: > Other version: en:Image:Ramses\_II\_at\_Kadesh.jpg > > This work is in the public domain in its country of origin and other countries and areas where the copyright term is the author's life plus 70 years or fewer. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/106 "2011-04-11T18:49:27Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Yes, I know there was some urban development in SS Africa, in Nigeria, Ghana, Mali and in places like Mozanbique and Zimbabwe, and I don’t include in the equation states like Ethiopia. I don’t deny those achievements at all. But for the most part SS Africa was tribal up to the arrival of Europeans. I’m told English isn’t your native language, but FFS, could you at least pretend to know what “most” means? “Most” of Africa was _not_ tribal by colonization (if you count population, which seems the sensible way to do it). \*Most \*of Africa was kingdoms and empires. Even the Tutsis that were (mis)spoken about earlier [weren’t tribal before colonization](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Rwanda#Early_history). And it really doesn’t help when you define “most” to exclude something like a thrid of Africa… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/107 "2011-04-11T19:16:35Z")
Just as a piece of information a decent [map](http://qed.princeton.edu/getfile.php?f=Trade_and_empire_in_Africa,_1500-1800.jpg) of pre-Scramble Africa and its more centralized states. I’ll note that it isn’t exhaustive. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/108 "2011-04-12T01:45:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m told English isn’t your native language, but FFS, could you at least pretend to know what “most” means? “Most” of Africa was _not_ tribal by colonization (if you count population, which seems the sensible way to do it). \*Most \*of Africa was kingdoms and empires. Even the Tutsis that were (mis)spoken about earlier > > And it really doesn’t help when you define “most” to exclude something like a thrid of Africa… Kingdoms of what? Give me a break. Who are you trying to fool? Urban sites in SS Africa were very few, with some exceptions. SS Africa was not a region of cities, highways, bridges, paved roads, dams, civil architecture and infrastructure in the scale of contemporary civilizations in Eurasia or the Americas. Even in those famous trading posts of Zimbabwe and Timbuctu, the urban infrastructure was minimal. The exceptions are cities in the East coast, but the interior still had a tribal lifestyle, as they have even today in some places. We aren’t talking about civilizations here (civilizations=cities, citizen=man of the city) but confederations of tribes under a single chief; tribes that lived in small villages. What’s the problem with that? I suspect some people here believe SS Africans were “superior” to Guineans only because they had iron. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/109 "2011-04-12T02:35:48Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > I said no Wheels existed in SS Africa. With exceptions, that is true for most of the region, except for its borders. So you wanted to point out that sub-Saharan Africa never had the wheel, except for those parts of the region where wheels existed. Where did those goalposts go? :dubious: > [@](#): > > The point is, the interior of Africa was a tribal region, and that’s why its development started late. So you wanted to establish that sub-Saharan Africa was uniformly a tribal region, by pointing out that almost none of the regions outside the interior of Africa were tribal. Where did those goalposts go? :dubious: > [@](#): > > Now, I was comparing two regions of similar level of development and how they are doing. That’s all. Who cares about Egypt, Nubians, Tumbuctu, the Chinese, the Inuits or the Martians. Let’s focus in the topic. So you wanted to point out that sub-Sharan Africa and New Guinea had a similar level of development. Except for the wheel. And metal working. And kingdoms. And cities. And monumental architecture And animal agriculture. And literacy. And excluding those regions of sub-Saharan Africa such as Tumbuctu [sic]. But apart from kingdoms, cities, metalwork, the wheel, monumental architecture, animal agriculture and literacy… what have the Romans ever done for us? Err, I mean, aside from all those things sub-Saharan Africa and New Guinea had a similar level of development. Where did those goalposts go? :dubious: > [@](#): > > Besides, I already was convinced New Guinea perform as an average SS African country. That’s OK the question is answered. The original question has been answered. We are now trying to dispel some ignorance pertaining the assumptions underlying that question. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/110 "2011-04-12T06:56:31Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Kingdoms of what? Kings. A class of Nobles. A standing Army. An agriculturasl tax base. That sort of thing. Pretty much the same as feudal Europe. > [@](#): > > Give me a break. Who are you trying to fool? The African ethnographic community, apparently. Did you actually _read_ that citation? > [@](#): > > Urban sites in SS Africa were very few, **with some exceptions**. Weasel on, **pinguin** , weasel on. > [@](#): > > SS Africa was not a region of cities, highways, bridges, paved roads, dams, civil architecture and infrastructure in the scale of contemporary civilizations in Eurasia or the Americas. Never said it was on that scale. But that wasn’t what you said. “No highways and dams” =/= “tribal” > [@](#): > > Even in those famous trading posts of Zimbabwe and Timbuctu, the urban infrastructure was minimal. Tommyrot. > [@](#): > > The exceptions are cities in the East coast, but the interior still had a tribal lifestyle, as they have even today in some places. “tribal” is not the antonym of “urban”. > [@](#): > > We aren’t talking about civilizations here (civilizations=cities, citizen=man of the city) At least you agree with me on that. I didn’t say “civilization”, I said “kingdoms” > [@](#): > > but confederations of tribes under a single chief; tribes that lived in small villages. I’ve already showed how this is bullshit, with chapter and verse. “Tribes” do not have a multi-layer social hierarchy, with kings, armies and an entire noble caste. It’s kind of definitional for tribes (as a social organizational type, not a kinship structure) to be fairly unhierarchical. tribes have a “Big man”, not a king who tours the entire damn country by moving from one plantation estate to another. > [@](#): > > What’s the problem with that? That it runs counter to the facts. > [@](#): > > I suspect some people here believe SS Africans were “superior” to Guineans only because they had iron. :rolleyes: I don’t. I don’t believe SSAs are superior to NGs in _any_ way. I \*do \*believe SSAs were in general way more culturally & technologically _advanced_ than NGs. But that’s not superiority (I take it you meant some flavour of moral superiority) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/111 "2011-04-12T11:13:16Z")
[Moderating] Just pointing out here: > [@pinguin](#): > > Give me a break. Who are you trying to fool? **pinguin** , these people are pointing out mistakes and problems in your premise and the posts you’ve made to support it. They’re not nitpicking you or pulling any tricks. Your attitude at this stage seems to be “You know I’m right, don’t bother me with the facts.” If you want to prove your point, you need to listen to the facts, choose your words and construct your arguments more carefully, and not roll your eyes at people who disagree with you. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/112 "2011-04-12T14:40:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I \*do \*believe SSAs were in general way more culturally & technologically _advanced_ than NGs. Then NG has progressed faster, isn’t? I leave the thread now. Nothing to add. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/113 "2011-04-12T15:20:21Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Then NG has progressed faster, isn’t? Absolutely. And by the same token, both are progressing faster than the US. What is it the Americans are doing wrong, and is there a genetic basis? ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/114 "2011-04-12T15:32:20Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Absolutely. > And by the same token, both are progressing faster than the US. > > What is it the Americans are doing wrong, and is there a genetic basis? I bet the army is wasting all the budget. But that’s another topic. Funny that you are so optimistic with some statistics, given even the UN is alarmed. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/115 "2011-04-12T16:19:55Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Funny that you are so optimistic with some statistics, given even the UN is alarmed. I wasn’t being optimistic, I was just trying to illustrate why your argument doesn’t work. I’m aware that africa has significant challenges, perhaps more than any other continent at this time. A book that I frequently recommend here – _“The Bottom Billion” by Paul Collier_, largely focuses on Africa as the home of many of the suffering billion. I’d love to take part in a serious thread discussing the causes and potential solutions to various african problems, and have done so in the past. But, to be honest, I also enjoy picking apart the arguments in the (many) ignorant/prejudiced SS Africa threads. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/116 "2011-04-12T17:51:27Z")
Open a thread on how to fix Subsaharan Africa. I have some ideas about the topic, as well. I just get upset when some people want to describe the Subsaharan African past as if it was a superb civilization, when it wasn’t. reinventing history to save “egos” is not the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/117 "2011-04-12T18:25:07Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > I just get upset when some people want to describe the Subsaharan African past as if it was a superb civilization, when it wasn’t. reinventing history to save “egos” is not the way to go. Of courtse, your straw man claim is also something one should avoid. No one in this thread has made any claims for “superb civilizations”; they have simply pointed out the errors of your dismissive comments. This board is hardly a bastion of Afro-centrism and overreacting to corrections to your errors is not the same thing as pretending that some African mariners turned into the Olmecs or that Cleopatra was black. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/118 "2011-04-12T18:38:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Cleopatra was black. [Or Charles II.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=544874) ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/119 "2011-04-12T18:50:00Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Of courtse, your straw man claim is also something one should avoid. > > No one in this thread has made any claims for “superb civilizations”; they have simply pointed out the errors of your dismissive comments. This board is hardly a bastion of Afro-centrism and overreacting to corrections to your errors is not the same thing as pretending that some African mariners turned into the Olmecs or that Cleopatra was black. I thought I had falled in another bastion of Black Olmec historians… :smack: With respect to “my errors”, just list them to clarify. However, the cacophonic chorus I have heared here make me quite difficult to deffend anything. I usually get bored with weird crowds, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/120 "2011-04-12T18:53:20Z")
Your errors are discussed on pages 1 through 3 inclusive, **pinguin**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=7)