# Is Subsaharan Africa lagging behind New Guinea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865 "2011-04-10T13:25:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/141 "2011-04-13T09:13:20Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Incas and Aztecs weren’t tribal societies but large states, and they had superb agriculture. so pretty much like Nubia, Ghana or even Zimbabwe, then… > [@](#): > > I doubt Indigenous from the Amazon, the Great plains or Patagonia enjoyed the same standard of living. This is not under dispute. Yes, people living in the equatorial jungle or the Kalahari Desert didn’t live in cities or have very sophisticated agriculture, mostly slash-n-burn or hunter-gathering. But no-one’s said any different. **These people were not the majority of Africans.**. The ones in the empires and other states were. > [@](#): > > What term would you use then, to describe people that live in small villages? Rural? Peasants? > [@pinguin](#): > > Show me the map of the spread of the Wheel, cities, monumental architecture, etc. And you are going to go back,as usual, to the limits and frontiers of Subsaharan Africa, where that region acquired those things from the external world. Everyone acquired these from the external world. \*Except \*agriculture, metalworking, and probably cattle farming, which Africans discovered for themselves. Oh, and domestication of cats. > [@](#): > > New Guinea also had posts of foreign influences and foreign people in the Island since centuries ago. They also had animals, that brought from the Austronesians, in the same way SS Africans brought theirs from the external world. See above. > [@](#): > > The masses of SS Africa weren’t literate, didn’t live in large cities and had monumental bridges. So was Europe, until the 1700s. > [@](#): > > Theirs standard of living hardly was better than most tribal peoples worldwide. Tribal peoples don’t have standing armies. Ask the British at Isandlwana how “tribal” the Zulus were. > [@pinguin](#): > > Irrelevant point. New Guineans of the upper mountains were also agricultural societies. Even more, they invented agriculture independently and earlier than other peoples. Cite? I had them pegged as around 2000a later (7000BCE vs 9000-9500BCE) than the PPNB, and 1000a behind China. Probably contemporaneous with West African developments > [@pinguin](#): > > Then NG has progressed faster, isn’t? Lately, I’d say no. But from Stone Age to Modern Age, sure. > [@pinguin](#): > > My point was simply that most people in Subsaharan Africa (South of the Sahara, please) lived in small villages and had a tribal lifestyle. Please cite your source for this “most people” please. > [@](#): > > In the interior of Africa you didn’t find the wheel at all. Why? Because horses didn’t survive there! And also because it wasn’t really conducive to people, either. I think you’ll find that the interior was generally less-populated than the coasts, always. Except the Great Lakes areas, but then, so what? So they didn’t use the wheel. They didn’t use steam engines either. What’s the point? No wheels =/= tribal. > [@](#): > > You didn’t find paved routes or bridges to cross rivers. Cite for “no bridges” please. > [@](#): > > You didn’t find large cities of hundred of thousands like in other continents. In the interior? Why would you _expect_ to? > [@](#): > > And even when Africans had iron they didn’t have steel or machinery at all. There’s already been a cite above to show that this is rubbish. Do your research before you make statements about what Africa did or didn’t have. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/142 "2011-04-13T11:49:34Z")
OK. Tarzan movies were crap. They just got inspired by the studies on Khoi-Sans and Pigmeys, that were marginal to the so advanced African Bantu civilization. Then, I wonder, how SS Africa managed to get so poor ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/143 "2011-04-13T12:14:45Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > OK. Tarzan movies were crap. > They just got inspired by the studies on Khoi-Sans and Pigmeys, that were marginal to the so advanced African Bantu civilization. OK, so you’re now scaling your argument down to “some African tribes weren’t that advanced?” ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/144 "2011-04-13T12:30:14Z")
I have been laughing all the way long, actually. The exageration in the achievements on the standard of living of SS Africans because the European colonization it is really amazing. In any case, that was not the point. All this topic was about a “primitive” peoples (New Guineans, not Africans) who managed to do pretty well in getting integrated to the modern world, without the troubles other places had. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/145 "2011-04-13T12:36:25Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > The exageration in the achievements on the standard of living of SS Africans because the European colonization it is really amazing. I think it’s funny that all the “exaggerators” managed to cite their arguments while you’ve appealed to Tarzan movies, sarcasm, and moving of the goalposts. > [@](#): > > All this topic was about a “primitive” peoples (New Guineans, not Africans) who managed to do pretty well in getting integrated to the modern world, without the troubles other places had. Which was also discussed. I think at this point it looks like New Guinea is about average compared to Subsaharan Africa, so obviously they’re not the only ones who “integrated to the modern world” successfully. And if so, the differences need to be dealt with in specific terms and not with generalizations and misstatements of history. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/146 "2011-04-13T12:40:50Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > I have been laughing all the way long, actually. The exageration in the achievements on the standard of living of SS Africans because the European colonization it is really amazing. > > In any case, that was not the point. All this topic was about a “primitive” peoples (New Guineans, not Africans) who managed to do pretty well in getting integrated to the modern world, without the troubles other places had. Do you have any information to contribute besides ignorantly wild assertions and accompanying derisive laughter? ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/147 "2011-04-13T13:02:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think it’s funny that all the “exaggerators” managed to cite their arguments while you’ve appealed to Tarzan movies, sarcasm, and moving of the goalposts. > . If you believe so, you weren’t paying attention to my arguments, then, only to others. I said very clearly that there were cities, mainly in the trading posts in contact with the exterior world, but that the interior of Africa was still living in a subsistence economy. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/148 "2011-04-13T13:17:13Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > I said very clearly that there were cities, mainly in the trading posts in contact with the exterior world, but that the interior of Africa was still living in a subsistence economy. You did say there were cities. You’ve posted around 50 times in this thread, so that’s hardly the only thing you’ve written. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/149 "2011-04-13T16:10:09Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > that the interior of Africa was still living in a subsistence economy. And? The interior of Europe away from coastal / large navigable rivers was essentially subsistence right into the industrial age. Your goal post moving is impressive and herioc in its own peculiar way. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/150 "2011-04-13T16:36:14Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > In any case, that was not the point. All this topic was about a “primitive” peoples (New Guineans, not Africans) who managed to do pretty well in getting integrated to the modern world, without the troubles other places had. You think New Guinea didn’t have problems integrating? Really? half the fricking island is still occupied by a colonial power and is in active rebellion. The other half (only independent since '75) is none to peaceful either. Sounds like they’re transitioning very well. Considering they’re only 13% urban…well, they’re ahead of Burundi there, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/151 "2011-04-13T16:47:36Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Graphs and data means nothing. Come on. See the graph. Um… what? ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/152 "2011-04-13T18:12:56Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > And? The interior of Europe away from coastal / large navigable rivers was essentially subsistence right into the industrial age. Your goal post moving is impressive and herioc in its own peculiar way. Yes, in Africa there were cathedrals, like in the Middle Ages Europe. There were people making clocks, building bridges and mills, making glasses and iron swords. Whatever you say. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/153 "2011-04-13T18:17:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You think New Guinea didn’t have problems integrating? Really? half the fricking island is still occupied by a colonial power and is in active rebellion. The other half (only independent since '75) is none to peaceful either. Sounds like they’re transitioning very well. Considering they’re only 13% urban…well, they’re ahead of Burundi there, I guess. Another straw man. I never said so. But giving the so advanced technological level of SS Africa, I would have expected New Guinea have had more difficult times than Africa in developing. Yes, the passed from prehistory to a modern society at jet speed. And they don’t blame foreigners for theirs relative backwardness. I certainly expect the best to this modest and smart people. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/154 "2011-04-13T18:37:26Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Yes, in Africa there were cathedrals, like in the Middle Ages Europe. There were people making clocks, building bridges and mills, making glasses and iron swords. Whatever you say. [La](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/18)[li](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLa5RvmKjcc)[be](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalibela)[la](http://www.google.ca/images?q=Lalibela&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=830); 12th century. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/155 "2011-04-13T18:42:42Z")
OK. I will change the term SS Africa for Jungle Africa, because that region is the one I wanted to compare to New Guinea. After all, Tarzan was filmed in Jungle Africa, and not in Ethiopia, Nubia or the kingdom of Timbuctu. Not even in Zimbabwe. Do you guys agree that Jungle Africa is the right term? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/156 "2011-04-13T18:43:46Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Another straw man. You can’t accuse people of strawmanning when you keep posting crap like this: > [@pinguin](#): > > Yes, in Africa there were cathedrals, like in the Middle Ages Europe. There were people making clocks, building bridges and mills, making glasses and iron swords. Whatever you say. > [@pinguin](#): > > OK. Tarzan movies were crap. > They just got inspired by the studies on Khoi-Sans and Pigmeys, that were marginal to the so advanced African Bantu civilization. > > Then, I wonder, how SS Africa managed to get so poor > [@pinguin](#): > > I just get upset when some people want to describe the Subsaharan African past as if it was a superb civilization, when it wasn’t. reinventing history to save “egos” is not the way to go. > [@pinguin](#): > > I suspect some people here believe SS Africans were “superior” to Guineans only because they had iron. :rolleyes: > [@pinguin](#): > > Did Kokuyus, Zulus or Bantues had wheels when contacted? Please, stop the denial show. > [@pinguin](#): > > Iron age civilizations? I am not going to start a debate on semantics :rolleyes: > […] > What Africans? There are many kind of them. And, if you ask me, my favorite SS Africans are the modest Pigmey and Khoisan peoples, so much discriminated by the Bantu majority, that invaded theirs lands with cows and iron spears. > [@pinguin](#): > > Or pretending analphabet tribal peoples living in huts are technological advanced just because they had iron. > [@pinguin](#): > > Ask Livingston if he saw wheels in tropical Africa. You are on the precipice of convincing me you are being obtuse on purpose and are not interested in a serious debate. If that happens you may not last long here. At this board we’re happy to discuss the issues with people and inform them, but I don’t see any reason to waste time if you’re going to obfuscate, dodge the issue, and misconstrue people’s questions and comments. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/157 "2011-04-13T18:54:36Z")
OK. Let’s be serious. I am not in the slightest bit interested in Africa. I am interested in the success of New Guinea. This thread is getting so repetitive I better quit. Bye now. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/158 "2011-04-13T19:22:59Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Another straw man. I never said so. Bullshit: [QUOTE=pinguin] All this topic was about a “primitive” peoples ( **New Guineans** , not Africans) who managed to do pretty well in getting integrated to the modern world,\*\* without the troubles other places had\*\*. [/QUOTE] My bolding > [@](#): > > But giving the so advanced technological level of SS Africa, I would have expected New Guinea have had more difficult times than Africa in developing. Why? One could argue that, starting from a much cleaner slate, they didn’t have as many cultural habits to unlearn. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/159 "2011-04-13T21:29:28Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > OK. I will change the term SS Africa for Jungle Africa, because that region is the one I wanted to compare to New Guinea. > > After all, Tarzan was filmed in Jungle Africa, and not in Ethiopia, Nubia or the kingdom of Timbuctu. Not even in Zimbabwe. > > Do you guys agree that Jungle Africa is the right term? People don’t live in “the jungle”. Tarzan was a fictional book made into a movie. It was not a documentary. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/160 "2011-04-13T22:06:51Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > After all, Tarzan was filmed in Jungle Africa, and not in Ethiopia, Nubia or the kingdom of Timbuctu. Not even in Zimbabwe. > > Do you guys agree that Jungle Africa is the right term? Actually, nearly all the Tarzan movies were filmed on back lots in Southern California. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=9)