# Is Subsaharan Africa lagging behind New Guinea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865 "2011-04-10T13:25:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/161 "2011-04-13T22:07:59Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > OK. Let’s be serious. I am not in the slightest bit interested in Africa. I am interested in the success of New Guinea. I am pleased that PNG is experiencing economic growth and improved prospects, but it is not especially remarkable given its location. It has excellent natural resources, wealthy neighbours and easy access to the sea. Many of the poorest african nations have none of these. And these are not ad hoc excuses; these are the things I _always_ list in these debates as the critical requirements for a fledgeling economy. (I also mention corruption, but that’s often the side effect of a stagnant economy…it’s not the thing that we can really tackle first). But anyway, it’s not like we’re talking about PNG overtaking SS Africa, just catching up quickly. So what? The less developed eastern europe has caught up rapidly with western europe…do we need to suggest that it is because they are “modest and smart”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/162 "2011-04-13T22:13:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, nearly all the Tarzan movies were filmed on back lots in Southern California. And I seem to remember that the elephants were usually Asian elephants, not African elephants. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/163 "2011-04-13T23:09:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, nearly all the Tarzan movies were filmed on back lots in Southern California. So should we actually have been talking about the [Chumash](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumash_people) all along ;)? ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/164 "2011-04-14T00:09:13Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I am pleased that PNG is experiencing economic growth and improved prospects, but it is not especially remarkable given its location. It has excellent natural resources, wealthy neighbours and easy access to the sea. > Many of the poorest african nations have none of these. > > And these are not ad hoc excuses; these are the things I _always_ list in these debates as the critical requirements for a fledgeling economy. > (I also mention corruption, but that’s often the side effect of a stagnant economy…it’s not the thing that we can really tackle first). > > But anyway, it’s not like we’re talking about PNG overtaking SS Africa, just catching up quickly. So what? > The less developed eastern europe has caught up rapidly with western europe…do we need to suggest that it is because they are “modest and smart”? So what? It shows that people can develop, no matter how poor they were in the past. It is a matter of attitude. Jared Diamond tell in his book “Germs, Guns & Steel” that the critical question that inspired him was done by a native of New Guinea who asked him: "“Why is it that you white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black people had little cargo of our own?” If it were for the oppinions here, that describe a highly developed Africa in the past, such a thought would have never appear in an African mind. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/165 "2011-04-14T07:04:18Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > So what? > It shows that people can develop, no matter how poor they were in the past. It is a matter of attitude. > > Jared Diamond tell in his book “Germs, Guns & Steel” that the critical question that inspired him was done by a native of New Guinea who asked him: > "“Why is it that you white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black people had little cargo of our own?” > > If it were for the oppinions here, that describe a highly developed Africa in the past, such a thought would have never appear in an African mind. Believe me, the question of why Africans lags behind in development is very much discussed in African Studies and Human Geography departments around the continent - I should know, I’m doing a second degree in Geography. Everyone agrees the situation is pretty complex. No-one thinks it’s _just_ colonialism. However, no-one thinks it’s because Africa wasn’t primitive _enough_, either:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/166 "2011-04-14T07:55:40Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Then NG has progressed faster, isn’t? > > I leave the thread now. Nothing to add. > > … > > However, the cacophonic chorus I have heared here make me quite difficult to deffend anything. I usually get bored with weird crowds, you know. > > … > > OK. Let’s be serious. I am not in the slightest bit interested in Africa. I am interested in the success of New Guinea. > > This thread is getting so repetitive I better quit. > > Bye now. Still waiting for you to actually doing what you say. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/167 "2011-04-14T09:04:54Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > So what? > It shows that people can develop, no matter how poor they were in the past. It is a matter of attitude. Notice all the things that you had to ignore to repeat your assertions: Firstly, I just listed some of the geographical advantages PNG has versus the parts of africa you’ve cherrypicked to compare it to. So now you say it’s a “matter of attitude”. Secondly, I’ve given at least a couple of analogies for why the modest catch up of PNG tells us nothing about the PNG or african populations, otherwise we’d need to say that Americans are stupid, say. You’ve ignored all that. Finally, it has been pointed out to you that some african countries are [doing very well](http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/01/daily_chart), and their GDPs are rising much faster than PNGs. Whatever your point is, I don’t think it stands up very well to this observation. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/168 "2011-04-14T13:24:57Z")
Yes, it is all depends who is watching, I guess. Come on, let me leave now. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/169 "2011-04-14T13:42:38Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Yes, it is all depends who is watching, I guess. > Come on, let me leave now. Famous last words. I’ll just start a thread titled, “Is Steve Sailer right about them dang Mexicans?” \* and you’ll come running back. \*Obviously not. ---
**Author:** ![pinguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@pinguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinguin)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/170 "2011-04-14T15:20:58Z")
I have wrote Sailer personally. He has to admit our Latino elites, those that study in the best American universities and come back, are smarter than himself and the average American. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/171 "2011-04-14T15:46:03Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > OK. Let’s be serious. I am not in the slightest bit interested in Africa. I am interested in the success of New Guinea. What a great shock. > [@pinguin](#): > > OK. I will change the term SS Africa for Jungle Africa, because that region is the one I wanted to compare to New Guinea. > > After all, Tarzan was filmed in Jungle Africa, and not in Ethiopia, Nubia or the kingdom of Timbuctu. Not even in Zimbabwe. > > Do you guys agree that Jungle Africa is the right term? This is truly hilarious. I do believe “Jungle Africa” is a technical term. > [@pinguin](#): > > Yes, it is all depends who is watching, I guess. > Come on, let me leave now. No, please do go on. This is great fun to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865/172 "2011-04-16T01:58:18Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Jared Diamond tell in his book “Germs, Guns & Steel” that the critical question that inspired him was done by a native of New Guinea who asked him: > "“Why is it that you white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black people had little cargo of our own?” If I recall correctly, Diamond also had some things to say about North America and I don’t think that they would jibe with your comments in this thread. In fact, if you were to hold Diamond to the standards you set forth here, I don’t see how you can rely on him as a source of anything much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-subsaharan-africa-lagging-behind-new-guinea/577865.md?page=8)