# Is suicide "selfish"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 12, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389 "2014-08-12T19:18:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/141 "2014-08-16T00:37:38Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Well said. I did vote but the above statement is closer to my thoughts. > > Selfish: putting your needs above other’s needs. Selfless: putting other’s needs above your own. > > It is absolutely a selfish act. The problem with calling it that is people automatically get defensive because it has a negative connotation. But it is simply a fact. At that moment you are putting your own perceived needs above others. The opposite of selfless. Some rationalize it with “they are better off without me.” But that is usually not true. Your pain may be over but it just > caused others pain to deal with for years to come. That is selfish. Some bristle at the word because it makes it seem petty like a kid not willing to share his candy. But it is not that. It is not necessarily a negative word. In some cases when all factors are weighed the selfishness may seem to be justified. Taking to counselor today, he shares your perspective. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/142 "2014-08-16T00:51:30Z")
He also pointed out the obvious: permanent solution to temporary problem. (In most cases) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/143 "2014-08-16T02:30:15Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > He also pointed out the obvious: permanent solution to temporary problem. (In most cases) Jesus. That’s the most banal and insulting cliche to ever address such a serious, complicated and nuanced issue. I swear to God, if I had a therapist that ever used that with me, it’d be the last session I ever had with them. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/144 "2014-08-16T04:02:02Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Well if we’re going to be strict about it, we have no way of knowing what anyone will feel about anything. More specifically, there is no objective measure of pain. If we’re discussing physical pain, some people shrug off things that other people find completely debilitating. Likewise, I think that people have different capabilities for handling mental pain. > [@](#): > > But I can be reasonably sure that my buying a coffee is not going to cause someone to faint, and a potential suicider may, for whatever reasons, be reasonably sure that their death is not going to cause huge pain to anyone. I question if someone suffering from depression is capable of objectively assessing the situation. I think the situation where suicide doesn’t cause pain to others, or makes the world better, is an extremely rare one. > [@](#): > > Why is that? Is it some law of the universe? > So even if my close relatives are already deceased, and I have no close friends, somehow…pain? I don’t know anyone who likes cleaning up after dead people. Not even for dead people who expired due to, say, old age or where death is a release, like terminal illness. I certainly did not enjoy discovering the two dead people I’ve encountered while commuting to work and I have no idea if they were suicides or accidents. At best, for those cleaning up, suicides are annoying jackasses who created a problem where their didn’t have to be one. And that’s the _neat_ ones. The jerkass who offed himself by putting himself in the way of a fully loaded train going 80 mph certainly caused some problems for those of us on the train, and for our loved ones who were extremely concerned about that “train accident” with a fatality their loved ones were involved with, and certainly for the engineer who was in such distress he had to be sedated before being removed from the train. So yes, there are different levels of pain caused but sorry, you can’t exit the world without being, at best, annoying to someone. Now, you may feel being an annoyance is justified… but most of the time I think the suicide is causing a crap load more distress and pain than they think they are. That’s leaving aside those who _intend_ to cause pain, which also occurs sometimes. I think there’s another category who is so caught up in their pain they simply don’t consider the effect on others, leading to shit like an acquaintance of mine who blew his head all over his bathroom with a shotgun while only his 7 year old daughter was at home. Of course she ran to daddy when the scary noise happened… Oh, yeah, I think seeing her dad’s somewhat headless corpse and gore and brains dripping off the walls and ceiling caused her some pain. The kid is still in therapy. Nice job, dad. I don’t, however, know the situation well enough to know if that level of horror was intentional on his part or not. If, however, he thought he was sparing his family pain by his manner of exit he was very sadly mistaken. > [@](#): > > And before you say it, killing yourself using these methods doesn’t necessarily imply your body being discovered by someone and scaring them; it depends on the circumstances. It’s not necessarily “scaring” people. Cleaning up after, say, a shotgun suicide is gross and it’s a crap load of work because you wind up having to replace drywall and carpets and sometimes flooring and other stuff. That’s a bit more than a half hour scrub. Dead bodies don’t scare me and gore doesn’t scare me but that doesn’t mean I like it, and I get pissed off when it occurs for preventable reasons. Yes, it depends on the circumstances but it’s never a Hollywood ending. The most “considerate” suicide I ever heard of was related to me by a paramedic. An old lady with failing health used pills to do the deed. Among other things, she spread a shower curtain on the bed to help facilitate clean up and a series of documents on her dining room table tidying up legal matters, canceled a bunch of stuff like phone and utilities, and a note apologizing for any inconvenient she was unable to circumvent… yeah, basically made a very tidy exit. However, she was NOT the typical depression suicide and was in a very ordered state of mind. > [@](#): > > When I attempted suicide, for example, I called an ambulance and warned them there’d be a body. I didn’t want anyone to see a dead body that was not used to seeing such things. Well, OK, yes, that _was_ considerate on a certain level. However, it’s unlikely you could be certain of killing yourself AND be certain that no such person would discover you. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > In some cases at least, an attempt to escape from a lifetime of pain and horror. And, in some cases, an attempt to stop inflicting that pain and horror on others. > > I shared the story upthread about a person I knew who committed suicide because he was slipping out of control and his medication was no longer working to control his significant mental illness and he feared doing something dangerous. He was, essentially, one of those murder-suicide people who did it in the right order. > > Selfish? I’m not opposed to the notion that there are “justifiable” suicides, it’s just that I think they’re extremely rare and my default position is “stupid and painful decision until proven otherwise”. In the case of Robin Williams, who seems to be the most recent inspiration for such discussions, I simply don’t know enough about the situation to judge. My default is, as always, “bad call” but given his decades-long history of personal problems and the recent revelation that he was suffering from the early stages of Parkinson’s it is certainly possible that he had tried everything possible and was now facing the prospect of losing the ability to perform which _clearly_ was a beneficial thing for him. I just don’t _know_ that. Neither does anyone else in this thread. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > Maybe there’s a more basic question: > > For those who consider suicide selfish, are you of the belief that all forms of mental illness are treatable and that a person can have a good, fulfilling life no matter what they might be suffering from? Nope. I think there really are horrific versions of mental illness that can lead to fatal outcomes such as suicide. I think there are some people who can’t be helped with our current knowledge. However, I also _know_ that access to good treatment is difficult to impossible for many, and that stigma and misinformation prevent people from attempting some options. I get very angry when I hear about someone who _wants_ help but is unable to access it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/145 "2014-08-16T04:09:12Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Frederich Nietzsche talked about nihilism - the absence of self. Utter nothingness. > > I have been there. > > There is no selfishness in suicide. A person who has reached that point has no “self” left. They completely believe the world is a better place without them and - ever considered this? - maybe it is. > > The black pain cannot be escaped. All is null. Why would anyone choose to keep living that? Agreed Ken001. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/146 "2014-08-16T11:04:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t know anyone who likes cleaning up after dead people. Not even for dead people who expired due to, say, old age or where death is a release, like terminal illness. Right, and death due to old age is going to happen some day, whatever we do. Why does bringing your departure date forwards make it worse? > [@](#): > > I question if someone suffering from depression is capable of objectively assessing the situation. Intent is important when classifying actions. “Selfish” implies willfully putting your needs ahead of others. > [@](#): > > The jerkass who offed himself by putting himself in the way of a fully loaded train going 80 mph certainly caused some problems for those of us on the train, and for our loved ones who were extremely concerned about that “train accident” with a fatality their loved ones were involved with, and certainly for the engineer who was in such distress he had to be sedated before being removed from the train. This is now the fourth time I’m saying this: I think that public suicides, especially those where you maximize distress for others, rather than minimize it, are probably selfish. Since where we disagree is the other kind of suicides, like your considerate old lady example, can we focus on those? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/147 "2014-08-16T16:07:58Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Right, and death due to old age is going to happen some day, whatever we do. Why does bringing your departure date forwards make it worse? Gee, I dunno - maybe because it’s unnecessary? Because you might be leaving a bigger mess than if you died of old age/natural causes? Because dying in a hospital bed of old age or disease in a place set up to be easily disinfected and cleaned of biological mess is a hell of a lot easier than replacing the drywall after someone blows their brains out? Because it can be traumatic for a family member or friend to find your bloated body and its attendant mess rather than, again, in hospital with people who are trained and equipped to deal with illness/injury/bodily fluids/death? > [@](#): > > Intent is important when classifying actions. “Selfish” implies willfully putting your needs ahead of others. Well, since we all seem to agree that different suicides are different doesn’t that imply that some may, in fact, be selfish where others may be so delusional that the concept doesn’t apply. > [@](#): > > This is now the fourth time I’m saying this: I think that public suicides, especially those where you maximize distress for others, rather than minimize it, are probably selfish. OK, so we agree on that. > [@](#): > > Since where we disagree is the other kind of suicides, like your considerate old lady example, can we focus on those? What needs to be focused on? The considerate old lady was an outlier, she’s not typical. As I have said both in this thread and others I’m willing to consider exceptions to my general view of suicide as selfish and wrong but my criteria for reaching that conclusion are pretty narrow. They basically come down to “throwing self on grenade to save comrades” scenarios or “severe, unremitting pain due to terminal illness that can not be relieved by modern medicine.” Just because the old lady I mentioned was considerate doesn’t mean I think she was right or that I agree with her decision. Granted I wasn’t there for it all, but nothing in the story related to me strikes _me_ as a reason to kill yourself. Clearly, she felt differently. I just don’t agree with her actions. Points to her for minimizing her impact on others, bravo, but I still think what she did was stupid and wasteful. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/148 "2014-08-16T17:10:41Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Jesus. That’s the most banal and insulting cliche to ever address such a serious, complicated and nuanced issue. I swear to God, if I had a therapist that ever used that with me, it’d be the last session I ever had with them. That’s why I put the “in most cases” caveat. Why would that perfectly valid observation cause you to fire a therapist? ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/149 "2014-08-16T19:39:53Z")
Because it’s undoubtedly not “in most cases.” If anything, it’s the other way around and it has to be one of the most obnoxious “observations” on the planet. Plus, for bonus points, I’d say that it would highlight such a stunning depth of willful ignorance and insensitivity that anything other than firing would be astonishing. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/150 "2014-08-16T19:47:48Z")
Do you disagree that many suicides are the result of believing a temporary situation is permanent? Examples I can think of: Getting fired (can get another job) Getting dumped/divorced (another person is out there for you) Losing family member (the rest of your family still needs you) ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/151 "2014-08-16T19:55:31Z")
Obviously, I do disagree, if that wasn’t evident already. I think when people make the ultimate of decisions (because it doesn’t get any bigger than that), it’s because of much bigger problems. Sure, something like the things you’ve mentioned above can serve as a catalyst, but usually, there’s other issues underlying why the chose to commit suicide. Like some form of mental illness, untenable situations, or a debilitating physical condition. I believe it’s very rare, actually, for most folks ever to decide to end their life because of extraneous circumstances alone. And to address your above examples, for some people… There’s not always another job. There’s not always another person. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/152 "2014-08-16T19:56:56Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Gee, I dunno - maybe because it’s unnecessary? To whom? > [@](#): > > Because you might be leaving a bigger mess than if you died of old age/natural causes? Might be. Then again it might be the other way round: that your death will be far “cleaner” if you take a cyanide pill than if you, say, let your terminal illness run its course. > [@](#): > > Well, since we all seem to agree that different suicides are different doesn’t that imply that some may, in fact, be selfish where others may be so delusional that the concept doesn’t apply. Fine. You seem to be agreeing that some suicides are selfish and some are not. The only thing we now disagree on, is that the not-selfish ones you are now implying can only be based on irrational motives (apart from the “soldier on a grenade scenarios” you mentioned). So FTR I disagree on that. But it’s a bit of a sideline here, as the OP is quite specific. > [@](#): > > What needs to be focused on? The considerate old lady was an outlier, she’s not typical. I agree she went to great lengths to take care of her affairs, but I dispute that she’s an outlier in the sense of wanting to minimize pain to others. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_a\_Platypus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d26b3c/32.png) [@Not\_a\_Platypus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_a_Platypus)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/153 "2014-08-16T20:08:00Z")
I’ve lost someone to suicide, and had others threaten/attempt it. I was also diagnosed with severe major depression and struggle with suicidal thoughts and urges of my own. I do think suicide is selfish, but I don’t **blame** anyone for it or feel mad at them. The main reason I’m still alive today is that I can’t bear causing that kind of pain to my close family and friends, but then I feel guilty for even thinking about it, which just makes me feel worse. Depression also makes it hard to remember that people do care and I’m not just a burden they tolerate and would be better off without. Sometimes you just want the pain to end and you can’t think clearly when desperation takes over. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/154 "2014-08-16T20:21:57Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > Obviously, I do disagree, if that wasn’t evident already. I think when people make the ultimate of decisions (because it doesn’t get any bigger than that), it’s because of much bigger problems. Sure, something like the things you’ve mentioned above can serve as a catalyst, but usually, there’s other issues underlying why the chose to commit suicide. Like some form of mental illness, untenable situations, or a debilitating physical condition. I believe it’s very rare, actually, for most folks ever to decide to end their life because of extraneous circumstances alone. > > And to address your above examples, for some people… > > There’s not always another job. > > There’s not always another person. Also, if your ultimate problem is self-hatred, then your “youness” is a permanent problem. When I was going through the ringer, it didn’t matter to me that I had a good job and that people loved me. The only thing that mattered is that for as far as the eye could see, I was always going to be “me”. I could pretend to be someone else and fool everyone, but I was always going to be me. And the thought filled me with hopelessness. When people aren’t full of self-hatred, they are able to see life’s temporary problems for what they are. They can give themselves the pep talk about how they can get another job or find another significant other. It is quite difficult to do this when you can’t even look in the mirror, though. That said…my therapist is fond of saying “suicide is a permenant solution to a temporary problem”. I’m sure she doesn’t say this to someone who has an intractable problem (like a terminal illness), but she did say it to me when I was depressed. And in retrospect, I appreciate its simple clarity. Self-hatred _is_ a temporary problem. It is hard to remember this when I am depressed. But I can’t deny its truth, at least as it relates to me right now. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/155 "2014-08-16T20:47:17Z")
I appreciate that perspective, **monstro** , but all I know is that there’s been more than a non-negligible amount of people (even in my own life) who have gone to their natural deaths waiting for their “temporary” problem to go away. Often, the problem isn’t just self-hatred. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/156 "2014-08-16T21:00:52Z")
Thanks monstro! Did better job than I would’ve. I made a feeble suicide attempt after a dispute with my father about he still wanting to control my $$ after I fulfilled my financial obligations to him, and when it didn’t happen, basically trying to declare me incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389/157 "2014-08-16T21:00:56Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Fine. You seem to be agreeing that some suicides are selfish and some are not. I think the main point of disagreement is the proportion of selfish to non-selfish. Or, another way, justified vs. non-justified. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-suicide-selfish/695389.md?page=7)