# Is SuperMax (ADX Florence) prison poorly thought out? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707 "2016-12-27T17:21:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/21 "2016-12-27T21:15:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Federal_prisons): In Federal prisons solitary confinement is known by the euphemism “SHU”(Special Housing Unit), and about the horrible, violent and dangerous things you have to do to get assigned to a SHU? I don’t know how the Federal system does this, but Special Housing and SuperMax are two different things in New York. A prisoner is placed in Special Housing as a disciplinary punishment; he’ll be assigned to SHU for a specific length of time (generally thirty days or less). SuperMax is a classification assignment; there’s a committee which decides what security level a prisoner should be assigned to. SuperMax in New York is not isolation; there are two prisoners assigned to each cell (which are larger than one-man cells). ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/22 "2016-12-28T00:07:45Z")
I find the question a little odd in general. The Florence federal SuperMax is not poorly thought out by definition. It is inherently secure which is its primary goal. It is meant to be a virtual death sentence where otherwise uncontrollable criminals or those convicted of especially heinous federal crimes like terrorism go to disappear usually for good. Prisoner satisfaction isn’t high on the priority list. It doesn’t really matter if the prisoners go more insane than they already are because it is almost impossible for them to cause any more problems than they already have once they are locked in a cell 23 hours a day for good (the one hour “recreation time” is just another cell with an open roof but still in isolation). In short, it is a modern version of a dungeon that is designed to have the highest amount of security possible to protect staff and the general public against people that can’t legally be executed at least right away. Florence and the state SuperMax facilities are also used as a deterrent to prisoners in regular maximum security prisons. It helps them realize that no matter how bad they think they have it now, things could always be much worse if they commit additional crimes on the inside. I have driven by the Florence SuperMax a bunch of times. It is eerie how quiet and peaceful it looks sitting there in the rural Rocky Mountains. Except for the heavily armed guards, there is no notable activity that you can see from the outside. It is like a black hole. Once you go in, you aren’t coming back out or having any significant human interaction again and that is the point to the whole complex. ---
**Author:** ![K2500](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f6c823/32.png) [@K2500](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K2500)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/23 "2016-12-28T02:28:40Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I don’t think any of your links (I only read the study, for full disclosure, though skimmed the others) constitutes a conscious design decision to ‘drive people insane’. So, I don’t think the continuum is there for the assertion that it’s between ’ “pleasant place” and “designed to drive people insane”'. I think it’s designed for control of highly dangerous prisoners, and that the possible or potential psychological effects, especially for those who are serving life sentences without the possibility of parole are lower priority factors (if they are factored in at all to those making the design and procedural decisions wrt solitary confinement). > > Frankly, it probably beats the alternative, which in the US would be execution (or release into a general population where either they would or could harm others or could or would be harmed by their fellow prisoners), but I concede that it’s not optimal from the perspective of the prisoners so incarcerated. Must the design to inflict psychological abuse be conscientious to merit consideration? On what do you base your views; that perpetual isolation and confinement are preferable to death? Hope? Are the men confined at ADX Florence permitted to hope? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/24 "2016-12-28T02:57:24Z")
> [@K2500](#): > > Are the men confined at ADX Florence permitted to hope? Sure they can as long as they do it private. That doesn’t mean there is any. I am not opposed to SuperMax prisons like Florence because I don’t see any alternative for the absolute worst offenders. It exists to protect everyone else from the most violent criminals. Once they go in, they are not going to assault or kill anyone else ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/25 "2016-12-28T03:09:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That there are degrees between “pleasant place” and “designed to drive people insane” that might be considered? Well so far we have Club Fed on the one hand, vs Supermax on the other side of the spectrum, I don’t see where you could place lifetime inmates short of say, Saint Elizabeths mental institution, after some invasive correction, or the closest thing we could get to death by personality, and warehousing the new “children”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/26 "2016-12-28T04:50:52Z")
The problem is you’re confronting an inherent conflict in the personality of criminals. They essentially reject following the rules of society. Put a group of people like that together in a group and you’re forming a very unstable society. So what do you do? Monitor and regulate their lives and minimize their opportunities to harm each other? Or give them a greater degree of freedom with the knowledge that they will abuse that freedom and use it as an opportunity to harm each other? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/27 "2016-12-28T13:23:46Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Once you go in, you aren’t coming back out or having any significant human interaction again and that is the point to the whole complex. Looking at the [ADX Florence wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence), I’m seeing plenty of release dates: 2032, 2056, 2025, 2019, 2033, 2024, etc, etc. Furthermore, the [list of former inmates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_inmates_of_US_Penitentiary%2C_Florence_ADX) shows several that have been released. Given this, it’s hard to claim that the effects of such isolation don’t matter. If everyone there was on a life (or death) sentence, perhaps one could. Even then, there’s the possibility of a conviction being overturned (my money would be on [Ahmed Omar Abu Ali](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Omar_Abu_Ali)). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/28 "2016-12-28T16:32:34Z")
While we’re on the topic, I’m curious what it would take to break someone out of ADX Florence. Escape from the inside is impossible, but from the outside, if a drone were to drop explosive munitions, it seems possible that it could blow holes in the facilities, walls, etc. but then you’d still need a small army to storm the compound itself and free the prisoner(s) and neutralize the guards. ---
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/29 "2016-12-28T16:37:21Z")
I deal with a lot of ex-cons and they have a saying “a prison is only as secure as the least paid employee they have.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/30 "2016-12-28T18:12:16Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > I deal with a lot of ex-cons and they have a saying “a prison is only as secure as the least paid employee they have.” That’s fine for getting contraband smuggled in but it’s not a good plan for an escape. No single employee is going to be able to walk a prisoner out through the gates. The best way to escape from a prison is to not be in a prison. Develop a medical problem and wait until you’re taken to a hospital. That eliminates around ninety-nine percent of the security you’d face escaping from the prison. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/31 "2016-12-28T23:45:17Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > While we’re on the topic, I’m curious what it would take to break someone out of ADX Florence. Escape from the inside is impossible, but from the outside, if a drone were to drop explosive munitions, it seems possible that it could blow holes in the facilities, walls, etc. but then you’d still need a small army to storm the compound itself and free the prisoner(s) and neutralize the guards. I don’t think that would work either. The cells are physically isolated from one another and not that big. The explosion would have to hit an exact spot to create an opening but without killing the inmate(s) in the process. I don’t think there is anywhere for them to go even if they manage to make it out of the cell alive. The complete security details of ADX Florence are secret but we do know that there are overhead wires to prevent helicopter escapes. I assume it is well protected against tunneling attempts too as well as every other conceivable ploy. Even if someone made it out of the physical facility, there are still perimeter fences and heavily armed guards to deal with. It would take a military invasion level effort to have any hope that it would work at all and even that isn’t realistic because Florence isn’t that far from Peterson Air Force Base where North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) is headquartered. That is some of the most heavily monitored air space in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707/32 "2017-01-07T23:25:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > While we’re on the topic, I’m curious what it would take to break someone out of ADX Florence. Escape from the inside is impossible, but from the outside, if a drone were to drop explosive munitions, it seems possible that it could blow holes in the facilities, walls, etc. but then you’d still need a small army to storm the compound itself and free the prisoner(s) and neutralize the guards. And after you have blown the convicts to meat puree with the explosion, exactly whom will you be rescuing? Want to get someone out of supermax, get a time machine, go back to their childhood and fix their major mental malfunction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-supermax-adx-florence-prison-poorly-thought-out/775707.md?page=1)