# Is Sweden really the liberal socialist paradise it's made out to be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409 "2006-07-06T19:54:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/61 "2006-07-07T13:15:37Z")
One thing that IS noticeable between Sweden and a poor US state (like Mississippi): Sweden has a much better infrastructure than MS. There are no dreadfully poor people in sweden like there are in MS, and the government provides a much better standard of medical care. I have been in rural MS, and the poverty is shocking-you see kids with missing teeth, untreated childhood disease (yes, malaria and hookworm are around). It is impossible to make a direct comparison between the two countries, but you are probably better off being poor in Sweden. as for the rich: there are rich people in sweden, how they manage to hold onto their wealth is another story. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/62 "2006-07-07T13:34:51Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] Sweden has a law that punishes anybody who pays for sex – that’s sticking its nose in other people sex life. [/QUOTE] Well, whatever one might feel about whether prostitution should be legal, I doubt you are going to get a whole lot of sympathy in regards to the government trying to intrude on the bodies and sex lives of the citizenry from those of us living in the U.S., where perhaps one vote on the Supreme Court is all that separates us from considerably more regulation in this regard. > [@](#): > > You also find such things as a much larger percentage of the total tax burden in the US and the UK is carried by the rich (though much easier taxed). Frankly, this is a really silly statistic, which is why it is the one you always see on the Wall Street Journal editorial page. The problem with such a measure is that it convolves inequality with rate of taxation. The reason the wealthy in the U.S. carry such a disproportionate share of the tax burden in the U.S. is primarily because they get such a disproportionate share of the income. And, in fact, the **entire** reason that the share of the tax burden of, say, the top 1% in the U.S. has risen so dramatically in the last ~25 years is because their share of the income has risen so dramatically. So, what you are really seeing is a measure that is predominantly telling you how unequal the income distribution is in the U.S. To the extent that the tax system is progressive, this then raises the tax burden more on the wealthy but it accounts for a much smaller factor of the disproportionality in tax burden than is accounted for by the inequality. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/63 "2006-07-07T14:13:15Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] Better chances for social climbing. And as the wealth of lowest segments of US population continue to grow at a much more vigorous pace than in Scandinavia, eventually even the poor in the US will rise above their Scandinavian counterparts.etc. [/QUOTE] You might want to back up this argument about “social climbing.” I’ve seen several articles in the last few years that say that the flattening of the middle class in the US over the last two decades has had a dramatic impact on social mobility, so much so that children of Americans are more likely to have the same standard of living as their parents as compared to the children of Germans, Canadians, or even – gasp – Swedes. [Cite.](http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3518560) And for as much as I hear about incomes, so long as we’re talking about high-income countries, I’m not seeing that increases in income have a direct relation with quality of life. Look at virtually any quality of life index, and the US will be somewhere around number two or three in per capita income, but the quality of life is pretty consistently lower . For most lists I’ve seen, New Zealand, which has a per capita income roughly a third lower than the US, has a nearly identical quality of life as we. [Cite.](http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf) > [@](#): > > But many people would work more and longer hours, if the tax on the last earned dollar was less. i.e. Since vacation is tax-free and the taxation on last earned dollar is so high, many opt for vacation who would chose less vacation if the taxation was easier. I find this really hard to believe. Literally everyone I know who works in Europe and enjoys longer vacations that Americans – and I include my American friends working there – find the ability to take time off of work as much more rewarding than increased pay. If I were to guess, I’d think that most Swedes (and most Europeans in general) have a slight envy for American sized incomes, but think we’re crazy for working as much as we do. I hear many wondering how Americans can spend any time with our families at all when we’re constantly working overtime and not allowed to take more than two weeks of vacation a year. This is clearly a difference in culture, not an outcome of different tax schemes; in other words, just because you like working, doesn’t mean that everyone else in the world aspires to work as much as you. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/64 "2006-07-07T14:48:35Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] Sweden has a law that punishes anybody who pays for sex – that’s sticking its nose in other people sex life. [/quote] Oooooookay. A law against prostitution wasn’t _quite_ what it seemed like you were talking about. > [@](#): > > The Swedish minister for equal rights, proposed that the Swedish football team should boycott the World Cup (…actually not a bad idea considering the performance of the Swedish team) because Germany doesn’t have similar laws. No, because of indications that thousands of prostitutes would be shipped in to Germany to cover the increased demand. > [@](#): > > If the Social Democrats are yet again again and again to form government after this autumn’s election it will most likely have to be with the backing of the extremist feminist and socialist party, which leader thought that not only should Sweden boycott the World Cup. Male Swedish citizens should be prohibited to travel to Germany to watch the games, since they could buy a woman down there (she has proposed a special man-tax). Gudrun Schyman hasn’t been a member of any party since December of 2004 and proposed those things _after_ leaving the party. No matter if or how the social democrats retain power after the election, she won’t be involved. > [@](#): > > Last year, the chairman of the Swedish State radio and television – which still has some kind of monopoly for sending television and radio in Sweden, and sits on the vast majority of the market – said that it was their job to educate the Swedish public in the correct political direction. Cite? > [@](#): > > I’m thinking mostly of all the help Sweden provided to Germany. Supplying them with vital ore. Transporting troops right through Sweden on Swedish rails (and getting good money for it too). etc. All in all, I think Sweden together with Denmark (but not Norway) should be considered part of the Nazi axis. Sweden cooperated with the allies as well. Anyway, this is probably for another thread, but I agree with the decision to allow German troops to move through Sweden. ---
**Author:** ![yelimS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/54ee81/32.png) [@yelimS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yelimS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/65 "2006-07-07T16:59:11Z")
[QUOTE=Rodgers01] I can’t say I know all that much about Norwegian-American history, but I’ve never heard a bad word about them. Were there once Norwegian gangs roaming around the mid-West terrorizing people?? Could be, but their descendants are for the most part considered model citizens. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Good to hear. It’s a point against racism that comes up once in a while, and it sounds reasonable. Australians are famed to be quite likeable people too, so it doesn’t sound strange that the Norwegian-Americans behave better now than before. **xtisme** : The point I was making is that Norwegian salaries are sufficiently high to compencate for the taxes. We’re not exactly poor here. **duffer** : Sweet. Can’t exactly claim to know any details about your system, but I’d rather pay taxes than worry about not having money for health care, should I need it. It might not be much cheaper here though. Someone with more knowledge should compare the two. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/66 "2006-07-07T18:03:05Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] I’m thinking mostly of all the help Sweden provided to Germany. Supplying them with vital ore. Transporting troops right through Sweden on Swedish rails (and getting good money for it too). etc. All in all, I think Sweden together with Denmark (but not Norway) should be considered part of the Nazi axis. [/QUOTE] You know, there are a lot of things that can be argued about as regards the political history of World War II (I’ve always wanted to see what we in GD would do with the Darlan Deal), but I think that that arch-Hitler-apologist Winston Churchill summarized Sweden’s position best: Preserving democratic ideals, the Swedes supplied Nazi Germany with raw materials as the price of preserving their freedom, both parties reckoning that Germany would benefit more from trade with a free Sweden than from a dominated puppet state. (Paraphrased but very close to his published analysis) ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/67 "2006-07-07T22:37:32Z")
> [@zuma](#): > > It is laughable that there are even Sweden/US comparisons going on here, although we all knew that would happen. You cannot compare Sweden and the US. You can, however, make comparisons to say, Sweden and the SF bay area, or maybe Sweden and New York. Sweden and Atlanta? > > You cannot compare what is basically a small us state or large US metropolitan area to the US as a whole. [Sweden’s Wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden) says the April 30, 2006 estimate of the country’s population is 9,072,269, making it more populated than New York City by about a million, or about the population of just over three Chicagos or four and a half Houstons, or just under nine Dallases. Sweden is also less populated than the state of Georgia (9th-most populated) by about 300 people, or 9 million Swedes. 😉 The Swedish population is also comparable to about 18 Wyomings (Wyoming is the least populated state). Just thought I’d provide some reference. > [@Rune](#): > > Sweden has a law that punishes anybody who pays for sex – that’s sticking its nose in other people sex life. So does most of the rest of the developed world AFAIK, notably including 49 of the 50 United States. > [@Rune](#): > > The Swedish minister for equal rights, proposed that the Swedish football team should boycott the World Cup (…actually not a bad idea considering the performance of the Swedish team) because Germany doesn’t have similar laws. If the Social Democrats are yet again again and again to form government after this autumn’s election it will most likely have to be with the backing of the extremist feminist and socialist party, which leader thought that not only should Sweden boycott the World Cup. Male Swedish citizens should be prohibited to travel to Germany to watch the games, since they could buy a woman down there (she has proposed a special man-tax). There are overblown nutjobs everywhere, and you’ve listed two individuals who you said are leaders of equal-rights organizations. Frankly, equal-rights leaders sometimes have to say extreme things to get noticed. Even if that’s not what they’re doing, equality is their passion and they can get overly worked up about it. In a population of 9 million–again, comparable to New York City, where you could probably find many more than two people to agree with you on anything and at least two people who enjoy any dubious sexual fetish–I’m not surprised that two people who haven’t been elected by the nation’s populace to any particularly important post have made statements that seem a little extreme. > [@Rune](#): > > Last year, the chairman of the Swedish State radio and television – which still has some kind of monopoly for sending television and radio in Sweden, and sits on the vast majority of the market – said that it was their job to educate the Swedish public in the correct political direction. Cite? > [@Rune](#): > > I’m thinking mostly of all the help Sweden provided to Germany. Supplying them with vital ore. Transporting troops right through Sweden on Swedish rails (and getting good money for it too). etc. All in all, I think Sweden together with Denmark (but not Norway) should be considered part of the Nazi axis. Is this based on their refusal to officially apologize? I don’t know anything about that, so I can’t really debate you on that point. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/68 "2006-07-09T05:54:01Z")
> [@](#): > > **Rune** : I think Sweden together with Denmark (but not Norway) should be considered part of the Nazi axis. With all due respect to your background, Denmark was an _occupied_ country; Sweden was neutral. If Denmark should be considered part of the Nazi Axis, then surely they would have passed some anti-Jewish legislation or laws. Actually, they were the only occupied country that didn’t! The Jews in Denmark were not even required to wear Stars-of-David. (The story about King Christian X is a myth.) The Danish Resistance was so strong that some _German soldiers_ assisted. What more could you ask of a small country surrounded on three sides by the sea? They were **not** , by any stretch of the imagination, part of the Axis powers! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/69 "2006-07-09T07:26:57Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] With all due respect to your background, Denmark was an _occupied_ country; Sweden was neutral. [/QUOTE] It was occupied, but it was a very “light” occupation, and the Danes did create a Waffen-SS unit…the Frikorps Danmark, not to mention the Nordland Regiment, which was made up of combined Danes and Norwegians, and a lot more Danes were killed fighting for the Germans than were killed fighting the Germans. The Danes joined the anti-Cominterm pact, and were even able to keep their own government until 1943. So, while they might not have been part of the Axis by choice, for the early part of the occupation, they were satisfied with it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/70 "2006-07-09T11:54:37Z")
[QUOTE=duffer] If you’re talking about someone having a heart attack, stroke or suffering a gunshot wound, it’s illegal for a hospital to turn you away. They have to try to save your life. [/QUOTE] But they **will** send you a bill later, and might eventually refer it to a collection agency. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/71 "2006-07-09T12:04:38Z")
[QUOTE=jshore] You might want to try making direct comparisons to the poor in the U.S. and how they are doing. [/quote] From all I’ve read, whatever their relative **numbers** might be, poor people in the U.S. have a harder life than poor people anywhere in Western Europe. True or false? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/72 "2006-07-09T12:07:23Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] The argument is not that the poor in Sweden are not materially better off that the poor in the US. The argument is that, the welfare state locks them in their unfortunate position as perpetual clients. That it impedes social mobility. It’s even a generational thing. The welfare state has an absolute abysmal record in breaking negative social inheritance, as e.g. witness by university students whom are nearly exclusively children of university students. In a welfare state you grow up to do as your father did. And if your father was poor and unemployed, chances are you will be too. I’ll take social mobility over a futureless stagnancy and rigidity any day of the week. [/QUOTE] Do you have any reason to think social mobility is any better in the U.S.? That’s part of our national mythology, but I’ve never seen any hard proof. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/73 "2006-07-09T12:11:04Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] Talking of corruption, the Swedish foreign minister decided to have the police close down an Internet site, for the crime of publishing the dreaded Cartoons of Blashmy. [/QUOTE] Abuse of power that is. Corruption it is not. I mean, was she bribed to do it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/74 "2006-07-09T12:16:47Z")
[QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus] I was interested in the article that **Jshore** provided as it makes a point dear to my own heart - does more money automatically mean a better life? I think one of the major difference between the European/Scandinavian and the Anglo-Saxon economic model is that Europeans seem to think the answer is no (and have a society/economy that reflects this) and Americans/Brits seem to think yes. [/QUOTE] From [“The American Paradox,”](http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&DocID=1155) an article by Ted Halstead, in the February 1, 2003, edition of The Atlantic Monthly: > [@](#): > > Nothing illustrates America’s profound contradictions more starkly than a comparison with other advanced democracies: among these the United States is either the very best or the very worst performer on a wide range of social and economic criteria. We are simultaneously the leader and the laggard among our peers—almost always exceptional, almost never in the middle. > > Without question we are the richest, most powerful, and most creative nation on the planet. Our economic and military might stems from our embrace of a particularly high-octane brand of capitalism, supported by financial markets that are deeper and broader than any others, labor markets that are more flexible, and a culture of entrepreneurialism that is unparalleled. These attributes have turned America into the world’s unrivaled engine of innovation and wealth creation. We boast more patent applications than the entire European Union; almost three times as many Nobel laureates as Britain, our closest competitor; and more business start-ups per capita than almost every other advanced democracy. One in twelve Americans will start his or her own business, evincing another outstanding American trait—our great tolerance for risk. And our export of movies, television shows, music, and fast-food chains makes us, for better or worse, the dominant cultural force on the globe. > > But like the Roman god Janus, America has two faces. Despite being the richest nation on the planet, we suffer from higher rates of poverty, infant mortality, homicide, and HIV infection, and from greater economic inequality, than other advanced democracies. We have far more uninsured citizens, and a lower life expectancy. On a per capita basis the United States emits considerably more greenhouse gases and produces more solid waste. We spend more per student on K-12 education than almost all other modern democracies, yet our students perform near the bottom on international tests. We have the highest rates of teen pregnancy and among the highest proportions of single parents, and American parents have the least amount of free time to spend with their children; indeed, the average American works nine weeks more each year than the average European. Our performance on many social indicators is so poor, in fact, that an outsider looking at these numbers alone might conclude that we were a developing nation. > > How do we reconcile these two faces of America? To a remarkable degree the United States seems to have exchanged social cohesion and a broad-based middle class for economic dynamism and personal freedom. Have we abandoned what used to be referred to as the common good? > > \ > > THE TWO FACES OF AMERICA > > This list of “bests” and “worsts” is based on a variety of sources—including statistics from the United Nations, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, and a number of other groups and experts—but the basic criteria are consistent. Among advanced democracies, America had to rank in the top three for a category to be listed under “bests” and in the bottom three for a category to be listed under “worsts.” (Where applicable, all rankings were determined on a rate basis or as a percentage of population.) > > Bests-------------------------------------------------Worsts > > Gross domestic product------------------------------Poverty > Productivity---------------------------------------------Economic inequality > Business start-ups------------------------------------Carbon-dioxide emissions > Long-term unemployment---------------------------Life expectancy > Expenditure on education---------------------------Infant mortality > University graduates----------------------------------Homicide > R&D expenditure---------------------------------------Health-care coverage > High-tech exports--------------------------------------HIV infection > Movies exported---------------------------------------Teen pregnancy > Breadth of stock ownership--------------------------Personal savings > Volunteerism--------------------------------------------Voter participation > Charitable giving---------------------------------------Obesity If the Swedes have made a bad bargain for themselves, we Yanks have made a worse one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/75 "2006-07-09T12:19:30Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] It was occupied, but it was a very “light” occupation, and the Danes did create a Waffen-SS unit…the Frikorps Danmark, not to mention the Nordland Regiment, which was made up of combined Danes and Norwegians, and a lot more Danes were killed fighting for the Germans than were killed fighting the Germans. The Danes joined the anti-Cominterm pact, and were even able to keep their own government until 1943. So, while they might not have been part of the Axis by choice, for the early part of the occupation, they were satisfied with it. [/QUOTE] [OTOH, at least the Danes refused to cooperate with the Holocaust.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_the_Danish_Jews) Come to think of it . . . if there’s antisemitism in Sweden, that might be in part because Sweden was never occupied, so it is probably the only country between Britain and Russia that still has a significant Jewish population. Is that true? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/76 "2006-07-09T12:24:36Z")
[QUOTE=zuma] It is laughable that there are even Sweden/US comparisons going on here, although we all knew that would happen. You cannot compare Sweden and the US. You can, however, make comparisons to say, Sweden and the SF bay area, or maybe Sweden and New York. Sweden and Atlanta? You cannot compare what is basically a small us state or large US metropolitan area to the US as a whole. [/QUOTE] But we are mostly discussing social policies here, which even in the huge and federal U.S. are substantially set at the national level. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/77 "2006-07-09T12:28:31Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] Sweden has a law that punishes anybody who pays for sex – that’s sticking its nose in other people sex life. [/quote] So? In how many countries is prostitution legal? The Netherlands is the only example I can think of, and are the Dutch any less socialistic than the Swedes? [QUOTE=Rune] The Swedish minister for equal rights, proposed that the Swedish football team should boycott the World Cup (…actually not a bad idea considering the performance of the Swedish team) because Germany doesn’t have similar laws. 😕 Prostitution is legal in Germany? Cite? I think prostitution should be legal everywhere – but closely watched to keep it from turning into white slavery. Which is now widely practiced in Europe, especially Eastern Europe, according to many news reports I’ve seen. It **is** a real social problem to that extent and no state should ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/78 "2006-07-09T12:33:12Z")
[QUOTE=Priceguy] I remember someone I was in a debate with on this board claiming Sweden was ethnically homogenous. I assumed it was ignorance specific to that person. Now it seems that this is the common view in America. Do you really believe that everyone here is blue-eyed and blond, or, failing that, at least ethnically Swedish? [sub]I actually happen to be blue-eyed and blond. But my point remains valid.[/sub] [/QUOTE] From [Benjamin Frankin:](http://bc.barnard.columbia.edu/~lgordis/earlyAC/documents/observations.html) > [@](#): > > Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and **Swedes,** are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Compexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind. What can you say about a man for whom Swedes aren’t white enough? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/79 "2006-07-09T12:40:36Z")
[QUOTE=Rodgers01] I can’t say I know all that much about Norwegian-American history, but I’ve never heard a bad word about them. Were there once Norwegian gangs roaming around the mid-West terrorizing people?? Could be, but their descendants are for the most part considered model citizens. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Actually there were ethnic crime gangs in the Midwest in the early 20th Century, and Norwegians were no cleaner than any. Some gangs were Jewish, which stirred up antisemitism. See [_Minnesota Rag,_](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394712412/sr=8-1/qid=1152448614/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9424761-5028125?ie=UTF8) the story of the landmark Supreme Court case of _Near v. Minnesota_ – which struck down a Minnesota “gag law” that had forced a racist and antisemitic scandalmonger to shut down his newspaper. Apropos of nothing, I once heard Garrison Keillor on _Prairie Home Companion,_ eulogizing the late (and Jewish) Senator Paul Wellstone, mention that “The Norwegians voted for him because he wasn’t Swedish.” [laughter sweeps the hall] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409/80 "2006-07-09T12:42:48Z")
[QUOTE=Rune] But many people would work more and longer hours, if the tax on the last earned dollar was less. i.e. Since vacation is tax-free and the taxation on last earned dollar is so high, many opt for vacation who would chose less vacation if the taxation was easier. [/QUOTE] And this is a bad thing why? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-sweden-really-the-liberal-socialist-paradise-its-made-out-to-be/363409.md?page=5)