Is Sweden really the liberal socialist paradise it's made out to be?

[BrainGlutton]

@Priceguy

At least, a planned economy rather than a market economy.

But the crucial question is, “planned” by whom? Many brands of socialists would insist on ground-up decisionmaking. E.g., pre-Revolution Russia saw the emergence of “soviets” in factories – self-organized workers’ councils, independent of management, of government, and of any political party including the Bolsheviks. Does that kind of thing exist, or have any power, in Scandinavia?

[Dunderman]

@BrainGlutton

But the crucial question is, “planned” by whom?

For me to call it socialist, anybody except the open market.

Many brands of socialists would insist on ground-up decisionmaking. E.g., pre-Revolution Russia saw the emergence of “soviets” in factories – self-organized workers’ councils, independent of management, of government, and of any political party including the Bolsheviks. Does that kind of thing exist, or have any power, in Scandinavia?

I can only really speak of Sweden, but no. I can’t think of anything even vaguely resembling that concept.

[Loopydude]

Huh. I always hear of the “Swedish Model” as being a fairly balanced compromise between purer forms of capitalism and socialism. The modern Swedish welfare state certainly seems more “socialist” than the U.S. system. I thought a “socialized” form of capitalism was the whole point of “social democracy”. Sure, it’s not a pure socialist regime, but neither is the U.S. a pure capitalist one. We still get called capitalist.

[Dunderman]

@Loopydude

Huh. I always hear of the “Swedish Model” as being a fairly balanced compromise between purer forms of capitalism and socialism. The modern Swedish welfare state certainly seems more “socialist” than the U.S. system. I thought a “socialized” form of capitalism was the whole point of “social democracy”. Sure, it’s not a pure socialist regime, but neither is the U.S. a pure capitalist one. We still get called capitalist.

Sweden is closer to socialism than the US, but that doesn’t make us a socialist state. We have the hallmarks of capitalism, such as the market economy, which I do consider to be the defining trait.

[Rune]

Sweden has massive hidden unemployment problems. A paltry economic growth at best. An educational system going south. Is ridiculously over regulated to the smallest details of private life – even your personal sex life, the State can’t keep its dirty nose out of. Has rising crime rates. Suicide rates that makes the bell ring, people are killing themselves to a world record. Is one of the worst taxed countries in the history of mankind – probably a greater part of the Swedish economy goes through the state than did in the good old Soviet (Mindboggling the Swedish PM has actually proposed that EU enact minimum tax rates!). Large sections of the Swedish population are kept outside society, without a chance in hell of ever becoming self sufficient or participating in any way meaningfully in society. Sweden has undegone a steady slide down the list of most wealth nations. A state media that would make Pravda proud – with an articulated news propaganda and population reeducation aim. And the racism seems mostly to be directed against Jews, which an appalling percentage of Swedes think made up the whole holocaust myth to get sympathy. It’s historic legacy for especially WWII is an abject disgrace, but unlike Germany, Sweden has only made some halfhearted attempts to address it’s record. etc. To top it out, it has for all practical purposes been ruled as a one party regime for the last hundred years or thereabouts, with all the problems of power corruption that follows such an arrangement.

• these are problems, by and large, shared with the other Nordic countries.

The Myth of the Scandinavian Model
How the Welfare State Corrupted Sweden
Swedish Models

[kevegan]

Hey, you left out that it inflicted ABBA on the world.

[Hostile_Dialect]

That’s a pretty devastating litany of charges, and the links you give all seem to lean hard to the right–editorials, if not by name then at least by content. Got any unbiased, non-editorial cites?

[kevegan]

@fetus

That’s a pretty devastating litany of charges

Just listen to any of their albums - or better still check out a DVD. The costumes…and the close-ups, ARGH! And the fellow who looks like a monkey. They should have done the humane thing, and put him down.

[Rune]

For a start:

Economics:

In stark contrast, the poor have barely increased their incomes during the past decade in the rest of the EU and especially in Sweden, a country once famed for its “social justice”.

Average incomes in the EU excluding the UK and Ireland are up 37.1% and that of the poorest tenth by 19.2%. In Sweden, the average is up 29.3% and the bottom decile by a mere 9.7%.

By 2004, Britain had a smaller proportion of households below the poverty line than Sweden, the figures reveal. They suggest that people are being shifted up the income scale much more quickly in Ireland and the UK than in Sweden or the rest of the EU.
The economies of Sweden, Finland and Denmark have grown on average by 2%, 1.8% and 2.1% a year since 1990. This is significantly less than the OECD average of 2.6% and a long way behind Ireland, which has grown 6.6% a year.
Only 13% of US unemployed workers could not find work within 12 months in 2004, compared with 21% for the UK, 42% in France, 52% in Germany and 50% in Italy.

Swedish growth model fails poor

In 1970 Sweden had the fourth highest GDP per capita among developed countries with income about 6% above the OECD average. By 1997 it was at fifteenth place with an average GDP per capita 14% below average.

Clark’s praise of Sweden misplaced
Now it’s around nineteen place I think. Continuing the steady drop to the bottom.

If Sweden was a state in the US it world be the poorest state. The average Swede todays is poorer that afro-Americans (supposedly the poorest segment of the US). Americans on average earn 50% more that Swedes.
http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/books.asp?isbn=9175665379

Tax:
Taxes too high? Even the Swedish tax authorities thinks so.

When the Swedish tax authorities produce eight infomercials about how to pay your taxes, they make them in Estonia - because the taxes are lower there…

Suicide rates:
http://www.mcdl.org/Stats/gnpsuicide.htm
Three Scandinavian welfare paradise states battle it out to see who can have most of its citizens (which are mostly young girls btw.) kill themselves in despair.

Antisemitism:
A survey from 1997, questioning 8000 children, 12-18, revealed that around 33% doubted or wholly denied the Holocaust. I don’t remember if it was this one or another survey that prodded the Swedish PM to lobby hard to have the annual Holocaust Conference hosted in Stockholm. A conference they, in their infinitive wisdom, decided to promote with an “artwork” and the exalted image of a female suicide terrorists whom had murdered 21 civilian Jews, plastered all over Stockholm. The artpiece was later improved with the help of the Israeli ambassador.

Here’s a more recent survey:
http://intolerans.levandehistoria.se/default.php?id=50

Survey from 2005:
41% of Swedes have a general negative views on Jews.
25% of Swedes, don’t want a Jew as a PM
15% thinks Jews generally have too much global economic influence.
14% thinks Jews generally are exploiting the holocaust for economic and political gains.

Sweden today is a major center of Europe’s anti-Semitism and especially the city of Malmo, commercial center of southern Sweden with 265,000 residents.

Eustatic racism in Eurabia?

Daniel Schechner, a 21-year-old law student from Stockholm, makes sure to conceal even the slightest hint of his Jewishness when he goes out in public.
When he says that he lives a double identity, he means that at work, school and in the street he would not voluntarily reveal his religion. He uses his non-Jewish last name, which he asks the reporter not to print. He does not dream of walking down the street while wearing a skullcap, Star of David or T-shirt with Hebrew on it, and when he went to Israel, he told people that he went to another country.
Anders Carlberg, president of the Jewish community of Goteborg, says that “when you arrive in a new and unfamiliar environment, you have to be cautious as regards your background; maybe there will be someone Muslim or from the extreme left.”

Jews in Sweden are afraid to be known as Jews

Crime:

Dramatic increase in assualt rapes

• There is a clear and obvious trend. And that is a doubling under the period, says Thomas Anderberg responsible for statistics at the Malmö Police

… never before has there been such a large number of rapes as in 2004. And this follows a decade of steadily increase in the number of sexual assualts.

Dramatic increase in assualt rapes

According to Swedish Radio on Tuesday, statistics from Sweden’s National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet) show that the number of reported rapes against children is on the rise.

The figures have nearly doubled in the last ten years: 467 rapes against children under the age of 15 were reported in 2004 compared with 258 in 1995.

Legal proceedings continue this week in a case involving a 13 year old girl from Motala who was said to have been subjected to a group rape by four men.

A further appeal is expected after the Göta appeal court freed two of the men and gave lenient sentences to the other pair.

http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=890&date=20050125

(If you’re a young girl or woman, you’re about six times more likely to be raped in Malmø than in neighboring Copenhagen. Overall Sweden has about twice the number of sexual assaults as Denmark. 25 times the number violent attacks. Twice the number of robberies. etc. But still it is estimated that only about a tenth of all rapes are reported, since very few rapist are ever caught, and even so habitually let off with little more that a slap on the wrist have let many Swedes to lose confidence in the police and the juridical system (some people thinking rapes have become so commonplace, have sarcastically started referring to rape as “surprise sex”))

Street robberies up nearly 50%

One in every five households in Stockholm experiences burglary every year.

Public distrust of the police and whole towns without police, means private security companies are having golden days

Crime rates Sweden (1994):
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/ssn/feat/4Q97/feat.pdf
Murder (per 100.000)
Sweden: 12.0
US: 9.0
Assault:
Sweden: 611
US: 427

In 2001 there were nearly 900 murders in Sweden, which is 9/100.000. (Denmark had 200 murderes, Norway: 120 and Finland: 50)

Politics:

[Since 1917 o]nly three general elections (1976,1979 and 1991) have given the centre-right bloc enough seats in Parliament to form a government.

Sweden - Wikipedia – if I remember correctly, they were also all three fairly short lived. And I don’t care if its evil socialists or conservatives or what not. Such a near monopoly on power for so long corrupts everybody. Every now and then, politicians and parties need to be given the boot goddam out of there. Talking of corruption, the Swedish foreign minister decided to have the police close down an Internet site, for the crime of publishing the dreaded Cartoons of Blashmy. How’s that for seperation of power.

…and before and stupid Swedes get their panties in a twist. Let me hasten to add, it’s worse in Denmark.

Also I give this as evidence:
http://heinz333.piranho.com/AbbA2/AbbA-02-081.jpg

[Dunderman]

@fetus

That’s a pretty devastating litany of charges, and the links you give all seem to lean hard to the right–editorials, if not by name then at least by content. Got any unbiased, non-editorial cites?

I’ll second this request, maybe not for all the claims but certainly for some. It’s very difficult to provide cites for things like “massive hidden unemployment problems” (since they’re hidden), but I’d very much like to see good cites for the following claims:

• Is ridiculously over regulated to the smallest details of private life – even your personal sex life, the State can’t keep its dirty nose out of. (Huh? The State has never touched my sex life.)

• A state media that would make Pravda proud – with an articulated news propaganda and population reeducation aim. (Again, huh? You do know we’re the guys who started the whole reality TV thing, right? Sorry about that, by the way.)

• And the racism seems mostly to be directed against Jews, which an appalling percentage of Swedes think made up the whole holocaust myth to get sympathy. (“Huh?” is too weak for this. There are a few crazy fringe groups claiming this, yes, but it’s far far far far from the mainstream.)

• It’s historic legacy for especially WWII is an abject disgrace, (Depending on which aspects you talk about here, I might agree or disagree, so please specify.)

• it has for all practical purposes been ruled as a one party regime for the last hundred years or thereabouts (So? You realize this is because that party has been voted into power for all those years, right? Do you suggest the democratic process should be put aside so that we can get another party in power?)

[jshore]

@Rune

For a start:

Economics:
Swedish growth model fails poor

You might want to try making direct comparisons to the poor in the U.S. and how they are doing.

If Sweden was a state in the US it world be the poorest state. The average Swede todays is poorer that afro-Americans (supposedly the poorest segment of the US). Americans on average earn 50% more that Swedes.
http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/books.asp?isbn=9175665379

This argument has already been debunked by Paul Krugman. Basically, it is akin to arguing that the average person in a room containing 999 homeless people plus Bill Gates is wealthier than the average person in a room containing all upper middle class folks. It is undoubtably true but it doesn’t tell you what you think it is telling you. Here’s what Krugman says:

Many Americans assume that because we are the richest country in the world, with real G.D.P. per capita higher than that of other major advanced countries, Americans must be better off across the board – that it’s not just our rich who are richer than their counterparts abroad, but that the typical American family is much better off than the typical family elsewhere, and that even our poor are well off by foreign standards.

But it’s not true. Let me use the example of Sweden, that great conservative bete noire.

A few months ago the conservative cyberpundit Glenn Reynolds made a splash when he pointed out that Sweden’s G.D.P. per capita is roughly comparable with that of Mississippi – see, those foolish believers in the welfare state have impoverished themselves! Presumably he assumed that this means that the typical Swede is as poor as the typical resident of Mississippi, and therefore much worse off than the typical American.

But life expectancy in Sweden is about three years higher than that of the U.S. Infant mortality is half the U.S. level, and less than a third the rate in Mississippi. Functional illiteracy is much less common than in the U.S.

How is this possible? One answer is that G.D.P. per capita is in some ways a misleading measure. Swedes take longer vacations than Americans, so they work fewer hours per year. That’s a choice, not a failure of economic performance. Real G.D.P. per hour worked is 16 percent lower than in the United States, which makes Swedish productivity about the same as Canada’s.

But the main point is that though Sweden may have lower average income than the United States, that’s mainly because our rich are so much richer. The median Swedish family has a standard of living roughly comparable with that of the median U.S. family: wages are if anything higher in Sweden, and a higher tax burden is offset by public provision of health care and generally better public services. And as you move further down the income distribution, Swedish living standards are way ahead of those in the U.S. Swedish families with children that are at the 10th percentile – poorer than 90 percent of the population – have incomes 60 percent higher than their U.S. counterparts. And very few people in Sweden experience the deep poverty that is all too common in the United States. One measure: in 1994 only 6 percent of Swedes lived on less than $11 per day, compared with 14 percent in the U.S.

The moral of this comparison is that even if you think that America’s high levels of inequality are the price of our high level of national income, it’s not at all clear that this price is worth paying. The reason conservatives engage in bouts of Sweden-bashing is that they want to convince us that there is no tradeoff between economic efficiency and equity – that if you try to take from the rich and give to the poor, you actually make everyone worse off. But the comparison between the U.S. and other advanced countries doesn’t support this conclusion at all. Yes, we are the richest major nation. But because so much of our national income is concentrated in relatively few hands, large numbers of Americans are worse off economically than their counterparts in other advanced countries.

[scotandrsn]

@Rodgers01

I can’t say I know all that much about Norwegian-American history, but I’ve never heard a bad word about them. Were there once Norwegian gangs roaming around the mid-West terrorizing people?? Could be, but their descendants are for the most part considered model citizens. …

Why, thank you!

[Rune]

@jshore

You might want to try making direct comparisons to the poor in the U.S. and how they are doing.

The argument is not that the poor in Sweden are not materially better off that the poor in the US. The argument is that, the welfare state locks them in their unfortunate position as perpetual clients. That it impedes social mobility. It’s even a generational thing. The welfare state has an absolute abysmal record in breaking negative social inheritance, as e.g. witness by university students whom are nearly exclusively children of university students. In a welfare state you grow up to do as your father did. And if your father was poor and unemployed, chances are you will be too. I’ll take social mobility over a futureless stagnancy and rigidity any day of the week.

[Dunderman]

Of course you had to answer while I was composing my reply. Bet you did it on purpose too.

If Sweden was a state in the US it world be the poorest state. The average Swede todays is poorer that afro-Americans (supposedly the poorest segment of the US). Americans on average earn 50% more that Swedes.

I’m sure the average Swede is poorer than the average American, but our poorest are nowhere near as poor as the poorest Americans.

When the Swedish tax authorities produce eight infomercials about how to pay your taxes, they make them in Estonia - because the taxes are lower there…

This is kinda silly, and no argument either way.

A survey from 1997, questioning 8000 children, 12-18, revealed that around 33% doubted or wholly denied the Holocaust.

This is totally screwed. I was 20 in 1997 and if anybody had said they doubted or denied the Holocaust we’d all have looked at him strange and kinda avoided him from then on. I don’t know where they found those 8000 children.

A conference they, in their infinitive wisdom, decided to promote with an “artwork” and the exalted image of a female suicide terrorists whom had murdered 21 civilian Jews, plastered all over Stockholm. The artpiece was later improved with the help of the Israeli ambassador.

That was a private artist’s work, and the Israeli diplomat vandalised it.

Survey from 2005:
41% of Swedes have a general negative views on Jews.

From the document (translated for the convenience of our non-Scandinavian brethren):

“5% of the queried between the ages of 16 and 75 express a strong and consistent anti-Semitic attitude. (…) A section of 36% contains a significant group with partly ambivalent attitudes towards Jews. This section contains individuals who agree in some anti-Semitic claims but reject others, and/or find it difficult to take a position pro or con anti-Semitic claims”

My emphasis. This doesn’t mean it’s not horrible enough, but “41% of Swedes have a general negative views on Jews” is a misstatement.

25% of Swedes, don’t want a Jew as a PM

Again, from the document:

“‘It would be completely acceptable for a Jew to be prime minister of Sweden.’ 25% - one out of four - totally or partly rejected the notion.”

Again, fucking horrible, but not as simple as you state it. This high percentage is probably due to a perceived inability to be unbiased in the Palestine question.

15% thinks Jews generally have too much global economic influence.

Actually, this is where you understate the facts. According to the document, 26% totally or partly accepted the notion that “The Jews have a large influence over the global economy”, 18% did so with the notion that “The Jews have a large influence over the media” and 17% did so with the notion that “The Jews control US foreign policy”. The 15% you cite agreed with the notion that “The Jews have too much influence in the world today”, economic or otherwise.

Unfortunately, these numbers I’m not even going to dispute. There are so many fucking idiots that can’t even understand the difference between “Jews” and “the Jews”. It’s just sad.

Sweden today is a major center of Europe’s anti-Semitism and especially the city of Malmo, commercial center of southern Sweden with 265,000 residents.

This made me skip, as I live in Malmö. I followed the link and it doesn’t say where it got the notion that Malmö is a major centre of anti-Semitism. It sure doesn’t rhyme with my experiences.

Daniel Schechner, a 21-year-old law student from Stockholm, makes sure to conceal even the slightest hint of his Jewishness when he goes out in public.
When he says that he lives a double identity, he means that at work, school and in the street he would not voluntarily reveal his religion. He uses his non-Jewish last name, which he asks the reporter not to print. He does not dream of walking down the street while wearing a skullcap, Star of David or T-shirt with Hebrew on it, and when he went to Israel, he told people that he went to another country.

I’m not going to claim that you see Stars of David everywhere you look in Malmö, but then, you don’t see crosses either. Religious symbols are rarely worn here.

None of the Jews I have known have hesitated before revealing their Jewishness. There is a synagogue in Malmö, which hasn’t been attacked in any way in my memory. There are at least two Jewish cemeteries, which haven’t been desecrated in my memory. The mosque in Malmö has been set on fire twice within the last few years, so it’s not like we don’t have a problem with racism. It’s just the anti-Semitism charges I find hard to swallow.

Since 1917 only three general elections (1976,1979 and 1991) have given the centre-right bloc enough seats in Parliament to form a government.
Sweden - Wikipedia – if I remember correctly, they were also all three fairly short lived.

Well, the one in 1976 lasted one term, until 1979, when it was re-elected for one term. The one in 1991 lasted one term. I’m not really sure what you mean by “short-lived”. They were exactly one term long, which is precisely what you’d expect. If you mean that they weren’t re-elected for another term, that’s false; the 1976 one was.

Every now and then, politicians and parties need to be given the boot goddam out of there.

And what do you suggest we do? Put aside the democratic process?

Talking of corruption, the Swedish foreign minister decided to have the police close down an Internet site, for the crime of publishing the dreaded Cartoons of Blashmy. How’s that for seperation of power.

Yeah, that sucked, and she caught a lot of flak for it. She has since left the office, unfortunately not due to this incident but due to something much dumber. I wish it had been over this.

[Illuminatiprimus]

Pretty devastating list of charges there by Rune, not sure how many of them are representative of the facts or not (lies, damn lies and statistics, and all that). This is a great debate though and I’m finding it very informative.

I was interested in the article that Jshore provided as it makes a point dear to my own heart - does more money automatically mean a better life? I think one of the major difference between the European/Scandinavian and the Anglo-Saxon economic model is that Europeans seem to think the answer is no (and have a society/economy that reflects this) and Americans/Brits seem to think yes.

It’s interesting that there are frequent calls in Britain for us to adopt a healthier work-life balance and to reduce our working hours as there seems to be no evidence that longer hours corresponds to greater productivity (we lag behind a lot of Europe in productivity even though our working hours are a lot higher). The Conservative party (of all people!) seem to be taking up this clarion call in their new policy announcements and may even make it part of their election manifesto: we should be happier not just richer, they tell us.

Great debate everyone, thanks - and please do carry on!

[jshore]

@Rune

Crime rates Sweden (1994):
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/ssn/feat/4Q97/feat.pdf
Murder (per 100.000)
Sweden: 12.0
US: 9.0
Assault:
Sweden: 611
US: 427

In 2001 there were nearly 900 murders in Sweden, which is 9/100.000. (Denmark had 200 murderes, Norway: 120 and Finland: 50)

Well, I don’t know about 1994 and 2001, but here is a chart from 2002 showing Sweden’s homicide rate to be about half of what it is in the U.S. This chart over a few years shows the U.S. to be higher by about a factor of 5…I am not sure what the difference is in comparison to the previous cite (besides covering different years). Note that the number of murders shown in Sweden for the years 1997-2000 are almost a factor of 10 lower than what you claim for 2001. And, here are numbers from the U.S. Department of Justice; one has to do a fair bit of searching through the chapter to find the info, but again one finds around a factor of 4-5 higher homicide rate in the U.S. than in Sweden.

[zuma]

It is laughable that there are even Sweden/US comparisons going on here, although we all knew that would happen. You cannot compare Sweden and the US. You can, however, make comparisons to say, Sweden and the SF bay area, or maybe Sweden and New York. Sweden and Atlanta?

You cannot compare what is basically a small us state or large US metropolitan area to the US as a whole.

[jshore]

@Rune

The argument is not that the poor in Sweden are not materially better off that the poor in the US. The argument is that, the welfare state locks them in their unfortunate position as perpetual clients. That it impedes social mobility… I’ll take social mobility over a futureless stagnancy and rigidity any day of the week.

So, do you have evidence that social mobility for the poor is very different in the U.S.?

[Rune]

@Priceguy

• Is ridiculously over regulated to the smallest details of private life – even your personal sex life, the State can’t keep its dirty nose out of. (Huh? The State has never touched my sex life.)

Sweden has a law that punishes anybody who pays for sex – that’s sticking its nose in other people sex life. The Swedish minister for equal rights, proposed that the Swedish football team should boycott the World Cup (…actually not a bad idea considering the performance of the Swedish team) because Germany doesn’t have similar laws. If the Social Democrats are yet again again and again to form government after this autumn’s election it will most likely have to be with the backing of the extremist feminist and socialist party, which leader thought that not only should Sweden boycott the World Cup. Male Swedish citizens should be prohibited to travel to Germany to watch the games, since they could buy a woman down there (she has proposed a special man-tax).

@Priceguy

• A state media that would make Pravda proud – with an articulated news propaganda and population reeducation aim. (Again, huh? You do know we’re the guys who started the whole reality TV thing, right? Sorry about that, by the way.)

Last year, the chairman of the Swedish State radio and television – which still has some kind of monopoly for sending television and radio in Sweden, and sits on the vast majority of the market – said that it was their job to educate the Swedish public in the correct political direction.

@Priceguy

• It’s historic legacy for especially WWII is an abject disgrace, (Depending on which aspects you talk about here, I might agree or disagree, so please specify.)

I’m thinking mostly of all the help Sweden provided to Germany. Supplying them with vital ore. Transporting troops right through Sweden on Swedish rails (and getting good money for it too). etc. All in all, I think Sweden together with Denmark (but not Norway) should be considered part of the Nazi axis.

[Rune]

@jshore

This argument has already been debunked by Paul Krugman.

Well I disagree that constitute a “debunking”. Clearly the inequalities in the USA is higher. You also find such things as a much larger percentage of the total tax burden in the US and the UK is carried by the rich (though much easier taxed). Better chances for social climbing. And as the wealth of lowest segments of US population continue to grow at a much more vigorous pace than in Scandinavia, eventually even the poor in the US will rise above their Scandinavian counterparts.etc. Also the longer vacation of Scandinavian countries he mentions, are only so and so a choice. In actuality it’s a law. But many people would work more and longer hours, if the tax on the last earned dollar was less. i.e. Since vacation is tax-free and the taxation on last earned dollar is so high, many opt for vacation who would chose less vacation if the taxation was easier.