# Is swishing cards around the table really the best way to shuffle them? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 2, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471 "2009-06-02T10:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/1 "2009-06-02T10:04:13Z")
I caught a bit of the [National Heads Up Poker Championship](http://www.hulu.com/watch/73340/national-heads-up-poker-championships-the-final-match) on Hulu and the way they shuffled the cards was one I never seen before. It involved dumping all the cards face down on the table and swishing them around for what looks like 15 seconds. Is there any reason that they do it this way? It seems like a particularly crappy type of shuffle to me. Firstly, it doesn’t seem to truly randomize the cards in any meaningful way and, secondly, it seems vulnerable to card counting by noting roughly which cards are going where. Is this standard in professional poker tournaments? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/2 "2009-06-02T11:17:04Z")
It’s used in poker games played for serious money. (Although in TV games, the dealer now often opens a compartment in the tabletop, puts a pack in it and gets a newly shuffled pack from there.) Riffle shuffles can be fixed by skilled card manipulators. Presumably it does randomise the cards or they wouldn’t use it. Card counting is used in blackjack to keep track of high cards already played to change the amounts you bet later. it has nothing to do with watching a card. Anyway given the cards are all face-down, are being slid over and under each other and are then gathered together - how would you keep track of one card? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/3 "2009-06-02T13:17:34Z")
It’s called a “wash,” and it does, in fact, do a very efficient job of randomizing the deck (relative to the amount of time required). However, it’s never the only method used to shuffle by a professional poker dealer. In the video linked in the OP, you can see the standard (nearly universal) method of shuffling the cards starting at the 11:10 mark. At the end of a given hand, there are generally cards lying on the table in several locations. They have to be raked in by the dealer in order to be collected, so it makes sense to take a few extra seconds when doing so to mix them up before gathering them into a proper stack. The dealer will then do three riffle shuffles and one “box,” in which the dealer basically cuts the deck \*roughly \*four times by successively removing sections of deck from the top and stacking them up one on top of another on the felt – either he’ll do riffle-riffle-box-riffle, or riffle-box-riffle-riffle; either is fine, but those are the only acceptable sequences. Orthodoxy holds that, using no other methods, it takes seven (reasonably competent) riffles to “completely” randomize a deck. Wash & Riffle is just a faster alternative to riffling seven times. ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/4 "2009-06-02T16:24:40Z")
I kind of learned this from my MTG days but shuffling doesn’t necessarily randomize the deck. You need to shuffle at least seven time in order to get some decent randomization. Anyway here’s a little [tidbit](http://www.math.hmc.edu/funfacts/ffiles/20002.4-6.shtml)that a website wrote about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/5 "2009-06-02T16:49:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I kind of learned this from my MTG days but shuffling doesn’t necessarily randomize the deck. You need to shuffle at least seven time in order to get some decent randomization. Anyway here’s a little tidbit that a website wrote about the subject. Of course, the conventional wisdom of 7 riffles assumes a 52 card deck, whereas Magic decks are larger than that (at least 60). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/6 "2009-06-02T17:45:20Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Is there any reason that they do it this way? It seems like a particularly crappy type of shuffle to me. Firstly, it doesn’t seem to truly randomize the cards in any meaningful way and, secondly, it seems vulnerable to card counting by noting roughly which cards are going where. I don’t really get either of your objections. It sure looks like a good way of randomizing the cards to me - the mix looks pretty chaotic to me, which seems like it would result in a pretty random stack of cards. And if the cards are face down, how is one supposed to keep track of which cards are going where? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/7 "2009-06-02T19:21:57Z")
I guess the argument would be that if the cards are overlapping at all, all the swishing in the world wouldn’t change their relative positions. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/8 "2009-06-02T22:45:04Z")
Yeah, the card on the bottom can’t become the card on the top, for example. Right there it excludes anything resembling randomness. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/9 "2009-06-02T23:06:27Z")
That’s _if_ the dealer only washes the cards. Not performs a mixture of riffling and washing. As **VarlosZ** said in his first two sentences, washing is never used alone. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/10 "2009-06-03T02:37:28Z")
> [@SmackFu](#): > > I guess the argument would be that if the cards are overlapping at all, all the swishing in the world wouldn’t change their relative positions. > [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > Yeah, the card on the bottom can’t become the card on the top, for example. Right there it excludes anything resembling randomness. But the cards don’t consistently overlap like they would if they were just stacked one on top of another. You occasionally see a lazy wash, which does very little good for the reason described above, but a competent wash does actually help: it basically moves a random collection of cards from the top portion of the pile off to the side, then shoves them back into the pile at random spots along the middle and/or bottom, and it does this, say, about a dozen times. The bottom card can, in fact, wind up on top – it’s less likely to do so than other cards, but that’s why you’re not done shuffling. ---
**Author:** ![the\_first\_supraliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f475e1/32.png) [@the\_first\_supraliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_first_supraliminal)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/11 "2009-06-04T04:57:10Z")
Riffle shuffles are a chance to bend the corners of the aces ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/12 "2009-06-05T16:12:25Z")
> [@the\_first\_supraliminal](#): > > Riffle shuffles are a chance to bend the corners of the aces Nice! Yeah, I’ve seen this done in Vegas almost every time I play cards. When I play with my friends, I do this to look cool. I want some sleeve garters too. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/13 "2009-06-06T14:55:58Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Nice! > > Yeah, I’ve seen this done in Vegas almost every time I play cards. When I play with my friends, I do this to look cool. I want some sleeve garters too. But bending the aces is only good for two things: cheating, and damaging your cards :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/14 "2009-06-06T15:23:45Z")
Swishing was always our family method and it works very well when done correctly. We did it that way because we could hardly shuffle and the standard shuffle left the same cards next to each other for us bad shufflers. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-swishing-cards-around-the-table-really-the-best-way-to-shuffle-them/498471/15 "2009-06-08T13:49:32Z")
> [@FlyingRamenMonster](#): > > But bending the aces is only good for two things: cheating, and damaging your cards :dubious: By “this,” I meant the swishing around on the table as opposed to a regular shuffle. But now that we’re on the topic, I should start bending my Aces… but only because I like damaged cards!