# Is tawriya or "creative" lying unique to Sharia or do other organized religions permit it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 14, 2014, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421 "2014-05-14T08:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/21 "2014-05-14T20:07:59Z")
Quote: Originally Posted by \*\*SeldomSeen \*\* > [@](#): > > It sounds very similar to the concept of truthiness widely practiced by the so-called “conservative christians” of the American right. Once you strip away the veneer of religiosity, fundamentalists are pretty much the same everywhere. > [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Cite? Comparison of citations here does not conform with what sounds like your fundamental confidence. The circumstances when lying is tolerated are crucial to any person’s morality, and analysis of those circumstances and the ramifications of those decisions on yourself and others is part of everyone’s makeup. > > I assume even yours. What’s your “veneer,” besides triumphant secularism and the image of unalterable clarity with regard to the worldview of the entire planet of people who say they are “religious?” Not even sure what the above means, but since you’re apparently taking issue with my statement, I’ll try to clarify. From the article cited by the OP: > [@](#): > > Now meet tawriya, a doctrine that allows lying in virtually all circumstances—including to fellow Muslims and by swearing to Allah—provided the liar is creative enough to articulate his deceit in a way that is true to him. " Wikipedia definition of “truthiness”: > [@](#): > > Truthiness is a quality characterizing a “truth” that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively “from the gut” or because it “feels right” without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts. OED entry on “truthiness” > [@](#): > > • informal > The quality of seeming or being felt to be true, even if not necessarily true. To the best of my knowledge, both Christianity and Islam are nominally opposed to deceit, dishonesty and lying. Tawriya (for muslims) or truthiness (for Christians) seem to be similar constructs, intended to justify some specific dishonesty, provided the lie is told in the furtherance of a “higher good”. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/22 "2014-05-14T20:10:40Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > . . . The question is whether a much-discussed doctrine in sharia DOES explicitly state that Muslims are allowed to lie to infidels. I’m not nearly enough of an authority on Islam to say… but neither are most of the people insisting that the Koran DOES endorse lying. > > DOES the Koran actually say what the anti-Islamists say it does? Another question is if it’s lying. I’m not going to hit the links, but what I’ve seen described so far are true statements that are not the whole truth and that are framed in a way to imply something that isn’t true. So these are not strict lies, and the minute you say that they’re lies because of the intent of the speaker, you’ve shifted the question to the intent of the speaker and why wouldn’t that encompass the whole intent of the speaker? Because if the intent of the speaker doesn’t matter, then they’re not lies. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/23 "2014-05-14T20:49:13Z")
I believe Mark Twain said something like, “If you want to know whether a man is dishonest, ask him if he lies. If he says ‘no’, he is.” I worked for a guy who, as far as I could tell, never made a false statement, but would often make a statement that seemed to imply something different. He was a shrewd operator, and I made it a point to set things up so that if he prospered, so did I, and that worked out pretty well for both of us. > [@SeldomSeen](#): > > It sounds very similar to the concept of truthiness widely practiced by the so-called “conservative christians” of the American right. Once you strip away the veneer of religiosity, fundamentalists are pretty much the same everywhere. > SS The religious don’t have a corner on the market for deceit while maintaining a self-image of high ethics, or of fundamentalism. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/24 "2014-05-14T20:51:27Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > David, I was probably 150 words into the article and realized the author was being deceitful. It’s very easy to pick apart. I don’t think you can trust this guy. Nicely done. Can we trust anyone as far as we can throw them? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2014, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/25 "2014-05-14T20:51:28Z")
It’s well know that Jedi\* can tell someone what the bloody hell ever they want to, if it’s true from a certain point of view. \*A real religion in the U.K., at least for census purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/26 "2014-05-15T00:33:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [My understanding is that it’s considered permissible in Judaism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-sacrifice_in_Jewish_law#Preservation_of_life_in_Judaism) [Here’s another explanation.](http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1049008/jewish/Telling-the-Truth-and-When-it-is-Permissible-to-be-Less-than-Honest.htm) That matches what I was taught in (Reform Jewish) Sunday school ethics class as a kid. The example was “if a known anti-Semite is holding a gun to your head and asking whether you are Jewish, do you tell him the truth? Of course not!” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/27 "2014-05-15T00:52:56Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > It’s well know that Jedi\* can tell someone what the bloody hell ever they want to, if it’s true from a certain point of view. > > \*A real religion in the U.K., at least for census purposes. The last bit is, of course, a creative lie. Which religion do you practice, KneadToKnow? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/28 "2014-05-15T01:07:00Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > That matches what I was taught in (Reform Jewish) Sunday school ethics class as a kid. The example was “if a known anti-Semite is holding a gun to your head and asking whether you are Jewish, do you tell him the truth? Of course not!” That’s interesting. My old Sunday School taught me that denying my Christianity, even under threat of death or torture, would result in severe punishment by God; i.e., the plagues and tribulations of The End Days would be 7 to 70 times worse for Christian deniers. (The obvious implication being that it’s best to never accept Christ in the first place!) However I think the teacher confused that dogma with the penalty for accepting the Mark of the Beast in Revelation 13. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/29 "2014-05-15T01:08:42Z")
Lots of ethical systems, both religious and non-religious, permit various degrees of lying, deception, equivocation and _supressio veri_. A more interesting question would be, is there a widely-accepted ethical system that rigorously excludes this? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/30 "2014-05-15T01:12:10Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > David, I was probably 150 words into the article and realized the author was being deceitful. It’s very easy to pick apart. I don’t think you can trust this guy. Interestingly, if you do a google search of tawriya, you’ll find over a dozen supposedly differently articles that all came out within a four week period in early 2012, all making these same claims. It seems impossible that all of these writers independently discovered this same topic in the same month. I have to assume that they’re reading and plagiarizing each other. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/31 "2014-05-15T01:15:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Tawirya is a principle of rhetoric in Arabic which means using a term with two meanings, leading somebody to think you mean the first when you mean the second, as well as a method of Quranic interpretation that says that anthropomorphic terms for God are meant to symbolize divine concepts; so that, for instance, if the Quran says “God sits on His judgement seat”, (for instance), it doesn’t mean that there’s an actual seat where God is actually sitting…it means that God judges mankind. So basically it’s the use of metaphors. It’s no more lying than it is when a Christian refers to Jesus as the Lamb of God. Nobody over the age of five actually thinks Jesus is a baby sheep. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/32 "2014-05-15T01:45:26Z")
I have my doubts. After all, Mary was not putting out, Joseph had to do _something_ … ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/33 "2014-05-15T13:20:18Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > The last bit is, of course, a creative lie. Which religion do you practice, KneadToKnow? 😉 I believe in the Church of Baseball. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/34 "2014-05-15T14:00:49Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There have certainly been Jesuit theologians who’ve twisted themselves into knots trying to find some kind of justifications for all kinds of sins, but even those guys would never have said, “It’s okay to lie.” Rather, they’d have come up with long-winded treatises explaining why a given lie wasn’t REALLY a lie. The Jesuits called it equivocation in the 16th century and were very skilled in the art, as they had to be when facing questioning in Elizabethan England, for instance. They were also much castigated by Protestants for it. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/35 "2014-05-15T23:07:40Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There have certainly been Jesuit theologians who’ve twisted themselves into knots trying to find some kind of justifications for all kinds of sins, but even those guys would never have said, “It’s okay to lie.” Rather, they’d have come up with long-winded treatises explaining why a given lie wasn’t REALLY a lie. A little hard on the Jesuits, aren’t you? Who are these Jesuit theologians who have “twisted themselves into knots trying to find some kind of justifications for all kinds of sins?” Rahner? Danielou? Teilhard de Chardin? Can’t think of one, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/36 "2014-05-16T00:09:51Z")
Misdirection is not lying. People should just listen carefully. I have had to explain this since the age of five. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/37 "2014-05-16T14:47:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Lots of ethical systems, both religious and non-religious, permit various degrees of lying, deception, equivocation and _supressio veri_. A more interesting question would be, is there a widely-accepted ethical system that rigorously excludes this? Lying is wrong in Buddhism (wrong speech) and in Buddhism intention is important. If you are technically truthful but deliberately deceptive that would be wrong, AIUI. But lying to save a Jewish family from the Nazis would be, not free of (karmic) consequences, but still less wrong than handing them over to be killed, because your considered intention was to help them. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/38 "2014-05-16T16:08:32Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > A little hard on the Jesuits, aren’t you? Who are these Jesuit theologians who have “twisted themselves into knots trying to find some kind of justifications for all kinds of sins?” Rahner? Danielou? Teilhard de Chardin? Can’t think of one, myself. Relax! I went to a Jesuit high school, and didn’t encounter this among any current Jesuits! But centuries ago, Jesuits were famous for “casuistry,” which meant coming up with intellectually plausible explanations of why any given sin, crime or rule violation wasn’t REALLY a sin, crime or rule violation. The Jesuits also came up with intellectual justifications for many of the Renaissance Church’s most corrupt practices. That was one reason that Protestants began using “Jesuit” as a perjorative. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/39 "2014-05-16T19:10:17Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Relax! I went to a Jesuit high school, and didn’t encounter this among any current Jesuits! Me too (in New York). I certainly didn’t encounter this among my teachers there. Also have some relatives who were Jesuits (now deceased). ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421/40 "2014-05-16T22:22:10Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > I believe Mark Twain said something like, “If you want to know whether a man is dishonest, ask him if he lies. If he says ‘no’, he is.” Bertrand Russell once asked G. E. Moore if he had ever uttered a false statement. Moore replied that he had. Russell said he believed that was the only lie Moore ever told. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tawriya-or-creative-lying-unique-to-sharia-or-do-other-organized-religions-permit-it/688421.md?page=1)