# Is teaching your daughter racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 24, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776 "2002-12-24T22:05:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/41 "2002-12-25T17:36:55Z")
I’m afraid that wouldn’t proliferate your genes too well. 🙂 (Anyone else remember that “Mr Show” episode with the last two pure whites in the universe?) I guess you’ll have to wait until your brother has a daughter and marry her. **verybdog** paints a most interesting possible future but dare we dream it possible? Never again having to go on dates? And black people no cheating! It can’t be a “brother” or “sister” it must **be** a brother or sister. Yes indeed, **verybdog** is one big time “paradigm-shifter” as the big brains would say. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/42 "2002-12-25T17:52:00Z")
IMHO, the OP raises a few different questions. First, what is an appropriate definition of racism. Second, whether certain kinds of racism are right or wrong. Third, the extent to which parents should influence or control their children’s decisions. Preferring that one’s children not marry blacks seems pretty racist to me, by any reasonable definition of racism. However, I don’t really have a problem with racism in the context of very personal decisions, such as marriage. And yeah, I hope that my daughters don’t marry black guys (or hispanic guys, or oriental guys or gentiles). I hope that they both grow up and find Jewish boys and give me Jewish grand-kids. But ultimately, it’s their decision. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Dickerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Scott\_Dickerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Dickerson)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/43 "2002-12-25T18:04:26Z")
I gather this thread has a longer history elsewhere. If anyone cares for comments from someone not aware of that history, just taking things as they appear here– 1. The OP’s question was misstated, but the question-behind-the-wording seems pretty obvious. “Does expressing a preference as to one’s daughter’s future course of action constitute something reprehensible in case B, but acceptable in case A–why or why not?” Sounds like a reasonable question to me. 2. One must distinguish between two senses of the term “racism” (distinguish logically, that is). “Racism” can mean a for-whatever-reason preference for one race over another in certain contexts, having nothing to do with the making of judgments beyond the scope of personal taste. (Eg, a black person might never vote for a beauty contest competitor “with one of those skinny, pointy noses.” Yes, it’s a form of racism–racial preference, even racial prejudice–logically: but not the typical use of the term.) The other, typical use entails the denigration of a person based upon the use of visual cues suggesting ancestral origins in a disfavored part of the world, allowing this to override the actual qualities of the person as an individual. So we have Racism-1 and Racism-2. 3. It seems hard to argue that Racism-1 is morally wrong in and of itself. People have tastes–end of story. The moral element may come into play if this sort of sentiment is expressed in such a way that it becomes confused with Racism-2, or is used to give “aid and comfort” to Racist-2 types. In other words, sometimes, for the good of society in general, it is best to hold one’s tongue even about personal tastes. 4. Racism-2 is wrong, in the sense that it does harm. It’s bad for everyone, and deserves to be discouraged. 5. No slippery-slope sophistries here, please. (“What if my daughter wanted to marry a drug pusher? Another woman? A four-year-old? A cow?”) Differences of degree really do become recognizable differences of kind, and no slope connects marrying outside one’s (socially defined) RACE with marrying outside one’s (chromosomally and anatomically definite) SPECIES. 6. If one were to look at this thread in and of itself, one might ask why so many respondees allowed themselves to “lose it.” Xenophobic prejudice is, to some degree, part of our biological/evolutionary heritage. Don’t look now, but you–and I–may have a bit of the bug ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/44 "2002-12-25T18:24:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lucwarm \* > \*\*However, I don’t really have a problem with racism in the context of very personal decisions, such as marriage. And yeah, I hope that my daughters don’t marry black guys (or hispanic guys, or oriental guys or gentiles). I hope that they both grow up and find Jewish boys and give me Jewish grand-kids. \*\* That seems more cultural/religious than racial - if I’m reading this right, an asian convert to Judaism would give you Jewish grand-kids. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/45 "2002-12-25T18:31:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by amarinth \* > \*\*That seems more cultural/religious than racial - if I’m reading this right, an asian convert to Judaism would give you Jewish grand-kids. \*\* Ok, so maybe I didn’t offer the best example. (There’s no need to get into the whole debate over whether Judaism is a religion, a culture, a race, or some combination thereof.) In any event, I don’t have a problem with a white person who wants only to marry another white person. (Or a black person who wants only to marry another black person.) ---
**Author:** ![Progressive\_left](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@Progressive\_left](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Progressive_left)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/46 "2002-12-25T19:15:25Z")
That father is case A probably wants his daughter to have a good living and to help poor people and in case B he probably just wants her to be safe. With all of the racism in this country why would we intrude on a father giving his daughter some sound advice. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/47 "2002-12-25T19:22:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Progressive\_left \* > \*\*That father is case A probably wants his daughter to have a good living and to help poor people and in case B he probably just wants her to be safe. With all of the racism in this country why would we intrude on a father giving his daughter some sound advice. \*\* What’s so dangerous about a white marrying a black? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/48 "2002-12-25T20:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scott Dickerson \* > \*\*I gather this thread has a longer history elsewhere. > > “Racism” can mean a for-whatever-reason preference for one race over another in certain contexts, having nothing to do with the making of judgments beyond the scope of personal taste. \*\* Actually, in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=152418), it was discussed whether a personal attraction/lack thereof for a particular physical “type” was “being racist”, and **verybdog** introduced the question whether it’s racist to tell your children to choose only a particular race as mates. The majority opinion in that thread was that such a harmless personal preference is not, repeat is NOT “racism”, just a matter of taste, as long as it’s not informed by a denigration of the other person’s ethnoracial group _and you do not seek to spread it and force it upon others_. IOW in that thread it was, in debating terms, “resolved” that the (extremely) loaded word “racism” only apply to “Racism-2” ; that since “racism-1” (instinctive preference for the familiar + non-rational arbitrary preferences due to taste) pretty much can’t be helped it should not be given a descriptor to which a condemnatory connotation has been firmly attached. That is carrying over here, apparently. The way I see it, **verybdog** ’s expounding of the father’s motivations and thought processes, to portray him as so damn hung up about the purity of the bloodline, and so _scheming_ to pass on his ideas in a manipulative manner, as described in the latter posts in this hypothetical, is what put the case beyond the pale. THAT led me to change my evaluation of the character in question from “maybe not racist, but sadly shallow” to outright bigoted. “Daddy” still may not be an _“ideological”_ racist (you can be bigoted w/o a philosophically elaborate justification for it) but now we “know” he’s got one bent set of priorities… ---
**Author:** ![Progressive\_left](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@Progressive\_left](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Progressive_left)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/49 "2002-12-25T20:09:32Z")
You’re missing my point. From the father’s perspective he is trying to keep his daughter safe. ---
**Author:** ![Ulterior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/85f322/32.png) [@Ulterior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulterior)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/50 "2002-12-25T20:36:39Z")
First off: But **Progressive\_left** , what is informing this decision? If the father feels that all black men are predatory lunatics, and therefore by preventing his daughter from marrying one he is keeping her safe, I am going to go out on a limb and call him a racist. Second, to **verybdog** : The logic of your OP analogy is rather silly, on a couple of levels: (1) The term “racist” cannot possibly apply to someone who is “discriminating against hookers”, hookers not being a race. Everyone else has already said this, so I won’t belabour it. (2) Even the term “discriminating” when used to apply to hookers is rather disingenuous. First, the father is not saying that being a hooker makes someone a bad person; if he were, then you’re right, he would be discriminating against hookers. What he’s saying, though, is probably that being a hooker is likely not the greatest, safest, and most rewarding profession her daughter could engage in. I think that this is a fair statement, since it’s factual. Thus putting this and racism in the same breath through use of the word “discriminating” is fairly silly. A racist believes that people of other races are inferior people. If a white grandfather doesn’t want black grandchildren because he wants grandkids who look like him, this is scarily reminiscent of a desire not to pollute one’s genes with “impurities”. Someone who doesn’t want their daughter to be a hooker doesn’t necessarily believe that hookers are inferior people, but does probably believe that her daughter should not be selling her body to men on the street. -Ulterior ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/51 "2002-12-25T20:41:20Z")
**Progressive\_left** : Not according to “Daddy”'s creator ( **verybdog** ). Remember? “Daddy”'s motivation is pretty blonde babies, as of last report: > [@](#): > > _verybdog:_ > All he wants is another barbie doll granddaughter that would look as lovely as his own daughter! But he is not a racist. He doesn’t hate blacks in any shape and form. Of course, that is assuming that last statement extends to that he does not attach social oprobium to association with blacks _per se_. ---
**Author:** ![verybdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/49beb7/32.png) [@verybdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/verybdog)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/52 "2002-12-26T06:17:49Z")
I disagree with the majority of our readers here - The father forbids his daughter from marrying a black man is not an instance of racism, even he is scheming and manipulative. As one of the readers pointed out, A racist believes that people of other races are inferior people, or he based on that belief to discriminate. But the father doesn’t believe that. He thinks people are born equal in every way and he doesn’t believe in the theory of “Bell Curves”. And you know what, he is also a good friend of many blacks, famous blacks, smart blacks, and many more wonderful blacks. No, he does not attach social opprobrium to association with blacks. The father didn’t tell his daughter that blacks are evils in the first place. He didn’t even mention the word ‘black’ to his daughter. He’s got one bent set of priorities, odd, strange, bizarre, but that doesn’t qualify him as one. You just can’t prove that. The thinking that anyone who doesn’t want to marry his daughter to blacks is racist is as false as this one - any valid criticism of Israel is anti-semiticism, automatically. Time to think. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/53 "2002-12-26T06:29:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by verybdog \* > **The thinking that anyone who doesn’t want to marry his daughter to blacks is racist is as false as this one - any valid criticism of Israel is anti-semiticism, automatically.** If someone who criticizes Israel doesn’t want their daughter to marry a Jew, I’d call it racist. Most of us here criticize Israel because of its policies, which are governmental, not the individual Jews living in Israel, who are probably very much like anyone else I know. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/54 "2002-12-26T06:32:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DMC \* > **Most of us here criticize Israel because of its policies…** That should say: Most of us here **who** criticize Israel… I don’t want anyone to get the impression that I meant that the majority of dopers criticize Israel, as that doesn’t seem to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/55 "2002-12-26T15:10:46Z")
So, **verybdog** , do you agree he IS being irrationally bigoted about physical phenotype, even if he is not consciously aware of the _ideology_ of racism? ---
**Author:** ![zwaldd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a9adbd/32.png) [@zwaldd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwaldd)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/56 "2002-12-26T15:29:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by verybdog \* > \*\*I reasoned, if (B) is racist, then (A) must also be racist because first, the daughter may not want to be a lawyer but a hooker, secondly, the father is discriminating the profession of hookers by telling so. \*\* Discriminating on the basis of race is racism. Discriminating on the basis of employment is…jobism? verybdog, what is your first language? You may not be asking what you think you’re asking. ---
**Author:** ![verybdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/49beb7/32.png) [@verybdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/verybdog)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/57 "2002-12-26T15:39:32Z")
**JR** , No. Irrational, maybe; bigoted, no. What’s wrong with trying to preserve one’s physical phenotype, the father asked? What does that have anything to do with racism? Is protecting endangered species rascism, the father wondered? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/58 "2002-12-26T15:43:01Z")
The human race is endangered? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/59 "2002-12-26T15:45:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by verybdog \* > \*\ ***JR** , No. Irrational, maybe; bigoted, no. > > What’s wrong with trying to preserve one’s physical phenotype, the father asked? What does that have anything to do with racism? > > Is protecting endangered species rascism, the father wondered? \*\* Species and race are two different things. If you believe there is a concrete difference in races (which I don’t believe), then “race” would constitute a difference inside of a species. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776/60 "2002-12-26T15:48:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by verybdog \* > \*\*The thinking that anyone who doesn’t want to marry his daughter to blacks is racist is as false as this one - any valid criticism of Israel is anti-semiticism, automatically. > > Time to think. \*\* How is wanting your daughter not to marry a “black person”, being racist a valid comparison with criticizing Isreal being racist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-teaching-your-daughter-racism/144776.md?page=4)