# Is Tech Making The Big-Brother Problem Irrelevant? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 11, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306 "2014-08-11T15:22:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/1 "2014-08-11T15:22:45Z")
Heightened public awareness of privacy and security issues has been leading to a wave of new developments. One of them is the rise in end-to-end encryption, [recently given a big boost](http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Horizons/2014/0808/Yahoo-joins-Google-in-making-e-mails-more-secure) by a couple of heavy hitters in the field: > [@](#): > > Yahoo will work with Google to create a more secure e-mail system by next year… > > While encrypted e-mails have long been common to those who take vigilant precautions regarding their online data, they are still mostly unfamiliar to average e-mail users. Encryption works by turning e-mails into a series of unreadable characters unless you have the code to unscramble them. Traditionally, encryption tools have been too difficult for most Internet users to use. > > But those days could be over… Flattening the learning curve is a game-changer, but the real significance IMO is that it makes too-big-to-jail into a force for good: > [@](#): > > …But as [_Ars Technica_ reports](http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/08/yahoo-to-begin-offering-pgp-encryption-support-in-yahoo-mail-service/), were encryption to become widely available as a Web browser plug-in, e-mails become encrypted before they’re even in transit. This means a company like Yahoo or Google does not actually possess the encryption keys, making it more difficult for government officials to demand that the encryption keys be turned over. > > Should a company such as Yahoo face legal issues, Mr. Stamos said the situation would be quite different from that of a company like [Lavabit](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/09/lavabit-shutdown-snowden-silicon-valley), telling The Wall Street Journal that Yahoo is a “publicly traded multibillion dollar company with an army of lawyers who would love to take this argument all the way to the Supreme Court.”… Is this the first step toward establishing a new status quo in which government snooping via mass interception is not an issue for the same reason government snooping via psychic clairvoyance is not an issue? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/2 "2014-08-11T16:17:27Z")
No. Even assuming for the moment (which I don’t) that this just isn’t PR bullshit while it’s cooperation as usual behind the smokescreen, the security services will just throw money and technology at the problem until they can break the encryption or get a law requiring us to register keys. They didn’t go to all the trouble they have done to let a few web browser plug-ins stop them. But in the end I simply do not believe Google, apple or any other company cares a damn about the issue. What they actually care about is the business impact of Snowden’s revelations and that’s an image management problem. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/3 "2014-08-11T16:48:13Z")
There’s always a back door. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/4 "2014-08-11T17:00:17Z")
No. We need decentralized mesh networks encrypted by default, personal web servers to replace Facebook/Gmail, full HD encryption, and the source code for any software we use before “Big Brother” is suitably stymied. And you still have to worry about back doors in your hardware. This is a very hard problem and “Big Brother” is several thousand steps ahead of your average computer user, not to mention much better funded. You can basically kiss privacy goodbye. It no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/5 "2014-08-12T00:11:36Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There’s always a back door. How do you back-door a never-repeating key code? Computers provide 2 things: massive amounts of cheap storage and fast processing. All it takes is a random character generator. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/6 "2014-08-12T00:43:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How do you back-door a never-repeating key code? Computers provide 2 things: massive amounts of cheap storage and fast processing. All it takes is a random character generator. I don’t think the issue was actually about reading emails, but rather monitoring communication networks. In short, encrypting emails doesn’t matter much if you can still tell that person A sent an email to person B. It’s not as if most terrorists were explicitly outlining their plans in plain language. You can tell almost as much about a person based on who they communicate with and where they go as you can what they write or say. I don’t think the magnitude of the privacy intrusion of reading emails is substantially different than knowing when and who I send emails to, so encryption doesn’t add much value IMO. Besides, given the NSA has intercepted servers being shipped to their final destinations in order to install backdoors without the buyer or seller’s knowledge, I sincerely doubt whatever encryption a company employs will be effective for long. Google and Yahoo don’t have the money or resources to fight developed governments of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/7 "2014-08-12T01:15:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > I don’t think the issue was actually about reading emails, but rather monitoring communication networks. In short, encrypting emails doesn’t matter much if you can still tell that person A sent an email to person B. It’s not as if most terrorists were explicitly outlining their plans in plain language. You can tell almost as much about a person based on who they communicate with and where they go as you can what they write or say. I don’t think the magnitude of the privacy intrusion of reading emails is substantially different than knowing when and who I send emails to, so encryption doesn’t add much value IMO. > > Besides, given the NSA has intercepted servers being shipped to their final destinations in order to install backdoors without the buyer or seller’s knowledge, I sincerely doubt whatever encryption a company employs will be effective for long. Google and Yahoo don’t have the money or resources to fight developed governments of the world. point taken. I was thinking individual and not servers. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/8 "2014-08-12T06:05:56Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Google and Yahoo don’t have the money or resources to fight developed governments of the world. Just who do you think _runs_ the governments of the developed world? Corporations, that’s who. The tech sector may not have the power to directly dictate government policy (like the banks and energy companies do) but they’re up-and-coming, they’ll get there soon enough. Besides, Google etc. have been collecting metadata for profiling purposes long before the NSA jumped on the bandwagon. Granted, it’s primarily for the sake of targeted advertising, but it’s really bizarre how most consumers aren’t fazed at all by that aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/9 "2014-08-12T06:15:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How do you back-door a never-repeating key code? By secretly installing software or hardware that sends the information to the interested government agency before it even gets encrypted. Unlike some random hacker the government is in a position to pressure or bribe manufacturers and telecommunications companies into letting them directly install surveillance devices and software on your computer and on the network. Your encryption software itself may have a subroutine that sends a clear copy off to the government. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/10 "2014-08-12T11:44:54Z")
[NSA and quantum computing](http://www.extremetech.com/computing/173898-the-nsa-is-building-a-quantum-computer-to-crack-encryption) > [@](#): > > According to the documents leaked by Snowden and published by The Washington Post, there are at least two programs that deal with quantum computers and their use in breaking classical encryption — “Penetrating Hard Targets” and “Owning the Net.” The first program, Penetrating Hard Targets, is funded to the tune of $79.7 million and includes efforts to build “a cryptologically useful quantum computer” that can “sustain and enhance research operations at NSA/CSS Washington locations, including the Laboratory for Physical Sciences facility in College Park, MD.” The second program, Owning the Net, deals with developing new methods of intercepting communications, including the use of quantum computers to break encryption. Governments essentially have unlimited resources to deal with the ‘problem’ of privacy. Even if for the sake of argument I actually believed Google et al were actually deadly serious about privacy, they could not ‘win’. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/11 "2014-08-12T13:49:45Z")
The more complex the technology, the more certain that it has a security hole, or will develop a hole with the next iteration of counter-technology. Quarter-inch steel safes with key locks were nearly invulnerable in the Victorian era. I love the mindset that goes against a couple of thousand years of technological history and believes that a new iteration of something invalidates further developments. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/12 "2014-08-12T15:25:43Z")
I would argue the exact opposite: that advancing technology has indisputably been infringing our privacy more and more as it evolves, not just privacy intrusions by government but also by commercial and other private interests, both legally and illegally. Who hasn’t been plagued by telemarketing calls, many of them specifically directed by marketing profilers; who hasn’t heard about Edward Snowden’s NSA revelations; who hasn’t been concerned about massive thefts of credit card and personal data from large numbers of private companies that keep extensive databases on us; who hasn’t been concerned about identity theft. Anyone who uses credit or debit cards, or worse, generic loyalty cards like Air Miles or Avios, is contributing to vast databases that profile your whole shopping lifestyle, which databases are routinely data-mined for marketing information and sold to marketeers in various forms. There’s a Texas company called Alliance Data that makes almost $4 billion a year almost entirely from this kind of data mining and analytics. Google, Amazon, and many others are constantly monitoring your searches and surfing habits. Put all those databases together with the fact that everything you have ever written or that has ever been written about you that is accessible to the Internet is almost instantaneously revealed to the world by a simple free search that anyone can do, and you have a scenario in which just about anything about you that is worth knowing increasingly becomes knowable. And then add to that the fact that under the Patriot Act, _ **all** _ such information held by government or by any company or entity under US jurisdiction must be made available on demand to any government agency deemed authorized to have it, and then tell me that the Big Brother problem is going away! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/13 "2014-08-12T17:44:58Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I would argue the exact opposite: that advancing technology has indisputably been infringing our privacy more and more as it evolves, not just privacy intrusions by government but also by commercial and other private interests, both legally and illegally. +1E100. (And no, I didn’t choose that randomly.) But most people are smug enough to assume that they’re actually safe, either through passivity or extreme protective measures, and dumb enough to assume that there’s nothing about their lives that could be of interest or use to any sibling of Big Brudda. I fear government misuse of the technology a great deal less than I do, say, any online entity large enough to have servers in more than one location. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/14 "2014-08-12T19:25:15Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > +1E100. You may wanna check your math there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ricksummon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ricksummon/32/3333_2.png) [@ricksummon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ricksummon)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/15 "2014-08-12T21:28:18Z")
Can the NSA create an encryption scheme so powerful that even They cannot break it? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/16 "2014-08-12T23:36:26Z")
Big Brother did not check email, since Oceania didn’t have any. Big Brother did know where you are. Police cars have license plate scanners. Enough of them, and enough scanners mounted on bridges and light posts and they could know where you drive. Facial recognition is coming. That combined with lots of video cameras will let them know where you are walking. Someone is experimenting with ways of encoding facial features, but you can’t encrypt license plates. Kids who splatter their personal lives on the web are ahead of the game. When they are adults there will be no privacy, so why pretend? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2014, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/17 "2014-08-12T23:45:20Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > You may wanna check your math there. 😉 You may wanna, erm, google the exact term used. 😃 > [@Voyager](#): > > Kids who splatter their personal lives on the web are ahead of the game. When they are adults there will be no privacy, so why pretend? Kids who are splattering their private lives on the web are playing on the information superhighway because they and their parents are too stupid to tell them otherwise. We will have all the privacy we choose to retain. We need to choose other than letting Google et al. have free access to our personal and private lives in return for shiny toys and supposed convenience. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/18 "2014-08-13T00:22:26Z")
> [@ricksummon](#): > > Can the NSA create an encryption scheme so powerful that even They cannot break it? Theoretically, that’s pretty simple. The only place where the theory falls down is in the sense that we don’t know the future, so even though we can predict that it’s impossible to crack something which used a 1 million bit key before the end of the universe, regardless of how fast PCs can become, there’s always the chance that the next day someone invents the quantum computer and sidesteps the whole issue. Since we do know what the potential capabilities are of quantum and traditional computers are, and if we assume that some problems can’t be solved any better than the currently known methods, then making something uncrackable is purely a matter of key length. But again, that only holds up until the day that someone discovers a mathematical or physics loophole that allows us to bypass steps. > **[Post-quantum cryptography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-quantum_cryptography)** > > Post-quantum cryptography (PQC), sometimes referred to as quantum-proof, quantum-safe, or quantum-resistant, is the development of cryptographic algorithms (usually public-key algorithms) that are currently thought to be secure against a cryptanalytic attack by a quantum computer. Most widely-used public-key algorithms rely on the difficulty of one of three mathematical problems: the integer factorization problem, the discrete logarithm problem or the elliptic-curve discrete logarithm problem. Al... ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/19 "2014-08-13T01:11:08Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > We will have all the privacy we choose to retain. We need to choose other than letting Google et al. have free access to our personal and private lives in return for shiny toys and supposed convenience. Convenience - and usefulness - are pretty close to mutually incompatible with security. A computer off the net is much more secure; it’s also far less useful. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306/20 "2014-08-13T02:10:59Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Just who do you think _runs_ the governments of the developed world? Corporations, that’s who. The tech sector may not have the power to directly dictate government policy (like the banks and energy companies do) but they’re up-and-coming, they’ll get there soon enough. But the “tech sector” is not some monolithic group that all wants the same policies or even cares about the same things (even if I grant they, and other corporations control the government). Given that the developed governments of the world essentially have infinite money, and Google has a finite amount and shareholders who generally don’t give a shit about these things, it’s not even a close fight. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > Besides, Google etc. have been collecting metadata for profiling purposes long before the NSA jumped on the bandwagon. Granted, it’s primarily for the sake of targeted advertising, but it’s really bizarre how most consumers aren’t fazed at all by that aspect. Which is another reason they are not gonna go too far out of their way to ensure the privacy of their users. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-tech-making-the-big-brother-problem-irrelevant/695306.md?page=2)