# Is the American Experiment Over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581 "2009-08-15T23:58:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581/61 "2009-08-17T15:46:06Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Yet in 1983 the Alliance managed 25% of all votes cast, thus showing that not only did they have a large support but also backing up my point about how the “first past the post” system screws the third party, leading the two main parties to want to keep it and the third main party wanting to move to proportional representation. > > In other elections: > > 2001 Lib Dem 18% > 1997 Lib Dem 17% > 1992 Lib Dem 18% > 1987 SDP/Liberal Alliance 23% > 1979 Liberal 13% > 1974 (October) Liberal 18% > 1974 (February) Liberal 19% > 1970 Liberal 7% > 1966 Liberal 9% > 1964 Liberal 11% > 1959 Liberal 6% > 1955 Liberal 2% > > So apart from a single blip in 1979, where they only achieved 13% of the total vote, the third party in the UK has consistently achieved 18-25% of the national vote going back 35 years. > > With proportional representation the political landscape in the UK would be wildly different. It is the method of counting, not the actual votes cast, that has stopped the third party. To say they are completely ineffectual and thus that the UK is a de-facto two party system is extremely naïve. At the very least, to win the Tories or Labour have to entice as many LibDem voters to them as possible, largely by pandering to their views. > > For the record, I have only ever voted Labour. I also have not voted since I left the UK in 1999. I recall in 1997, Tony Blair ran on, among other planks, a promise to hold a national referendum on switching over to PR. That promise never was kept. Is either of the major parties still talking about it at all? ---
**Author:** ![borodatiy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@borodatiy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borodatiy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581/62 "2009-08-18T03:35:20Z")
I don’t know how to describe myself in terms of Right vs. Left. Let’s see: - I firmly believe that I have an absolute right to own a gun or two; even 10 or 15. However, I agree that the government has the right to prevent me from possessing my own, privately held, nuclear-tipped ICBM. - I don’t believe in God even though I am Jewish ( in Eastern Europe, where I was born, this is an ethnic characteristic, not a religious one ) - I believe that woman have the right to choose whether to abort or not. However, I think the the potential father should be at least consulted. - I think that the war in Afghanistan was justified morally ( actually, I think that Bush took a wrong approach; it should’ve been the retaliation, not “liberation” ) and the Iraq war was justified politically as far as the removal of Hussein. - I have difficulty understanding people supporting certain socialistic policies, who haven’t lived in the USSR or another brotherly socialist state. I was born there, so every time I hear someone saying that the socialism ( whether the whole structure or just elements of it ) is not all that bad, I really want to see this person in a mile long line to get food in the middle of Russian winter. I am not even going to discuss the other niceties like Gulag, unavailability of modern pharmaceuticals, etc. - I can’t understand “birthers” or loyal Rush Limbaugh followers. He is funny sometimes, and he might have a few smart ideas, but it hardly justifies listening to one of the most stupid people on radio. While I dislike Obama, because I think that he is the mix of Chavez and Gorbachev, I have to say that the whole mess about his place of birth is plain stupid. Both of these group do nothing, but support the stereotype that any republican is a complete moron without hint of critical thinking or education. Unfortunately, I see a few things in the United States that were present right before the Soviet Union fell apart. I am just wondering, which camp will I need to join if something similar happens here? Right or Left?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581/63 "2009-08-18T03:52:46Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I am so dis-heartened by recent events. It looks like we may not be able to reach a national consensus on health care. It is arguably one of the biggest problems we face: costs are growing faster than other segments of the economy, it is a barrier to American competitiveness in manufacturing, we have large numbers of unisured, and we pay more money for worse results than other countries. > > There are many arguments about how to make things better, private vs public, mandatory vs optional, state vs federal, fix the “gaps” or look at the whole thing, … But we have become bogged down in complete lies from the opposition. There is no coherent debate at all. > > Meanwhile we have the birthers who question the very legitimacy of the President with no facts to back them up. Other issues such as abortion, gun rights, and prayer in school continue to divide the country. There is a great deal of rancor between red and blue states and urban vs rural residents. > > If a Conservative president is elected in 2012 or 2016 then I am sure the left will respond with equal vigor. If there os repeat of the 2000 debacle there will be riots in the streets rather than the calm acceptance of the court’s ruling by Gore. I am not sure how much longer the US can hold together. One more liberal ruling by the SC and I think conservative states will just defy it and provoke a constitutional crisis. I know I’m ready to cecede myself just to get away from the red state nuts. I’m also sick of spending more than a fair share of the federal budget in red states, while they thumb their noses and bray about govt. spending. We came awful close to having to respect other states gun laws while they refuse to recognize gay marriages from other states. > > I had great hope for Obama, and I think he has done an excellent job of trying to build a bi-partisan consensus, but there is no reciprocation. I no longer see a politcal system that is trying to accomplish public good, just one that is trying to “win” at all costs. > > I think that the internet and cable news has removed the ability for the entire country to sit down and watch the same news broadcasts like we did in the 60s. Now all people watch (on both sides) are shows that reflect their own biases. > > Anyone want to talk me down? Wah wah. The way to deal with the healthcare debate is to never get sick, yet work a job and have insurance. Then you got a bunch of pencil-pushing ass farmers tracking the paperwork but never yielding a reward, except on each other. It’s perfect! Or you could learn how to treat, or better yet prevent, common ailments. You would never need to visit a gov’ment health professional unless it got serious. And then your taxes would pay for it. You paid taxes right? The rest of it… what, you’re upset that there is still a stubborn opposition to facts and logic? Get used to it. Figure out a curriculum is my best advice. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581/64 "2009-08-18T23:11:18Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I am so dis-heartened by recent events. It looks like we may not be able to reach a national consensus on health care…Other issues such as abortion, gun rights, and prayer in school continue to divide the country…One more liberal ruling by the SC and I think conservative states will just defy it and provoke a constitutional crisis…We came awful close to having to respect other states gun laws while they refuse to recognize gay marriages from other states. > > I had great hope for Obama, and I think he has done an excellent job of trying to build a bi-partisan consensus, but there is no reciprocation. I no longer see a politcal system that is trying to accomplish public good, just one that is trying to “win” at all costs. > > Anyone want to talk me down? Maybe you should moderate your expectations. Look at it from the other guy’s point of view: the fact that things like government-run medicine, gay marriage, gun control, and legalized abortion are even on the agenda is evidence that the American Experiment failed a long time ago. In fact, many believe that the American Experiment had little to do with the government, and from that perspective the Experiment failed in about 1932. All those benighted boobs wreaking havoc on your glorious plans have felt the same way you do for decades. You sound like my son when I take him out for an ice cream sundae and instead of saying thanks, he complains that his sundae only had one cherry on it instead of two like last time. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581/65 "2009-08-18T23:20:09Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > You sound like my son when I take him out for an ice cream sundae and instead of saying thanks, he complains that his sundae only had one cherry on it instead of two like last time. Maybe you’ve done a poor job of raising him? ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581/66 "2009-08-18T23:44:46Z")
Count me with those who feel the OP and supporters need some perspective. The collapse of the US has been predicted countless times and the tension today is trivial compared to the 1960’s/early 70’s. The election “crises” of 2000 ended without incident (even though people _still_ claim it was stolen). You think it’s bad now, how about during the John Adams presidency when people criticizing the government were jailed under the “Alien and Sedition Act”? > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > We would be better off with a monarch. I am absolutely serious. This is the most alarming part of this thread. It’s attitudes like this that lead to people like Putin securing political power (or, at risk of invoking Godwin’s, the end of the Wiemar Republic). Some people are scared of allowing their political opponents to have their say, especially if they say it loudly–don’t fall into this trap. Supporting a dictatorship is the only way the American “experiment” can fail. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581/67 "2009-08-19T00:53:32Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Maybe you’ve done a poor job of raising him? Great job staying on topic, dickweed. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581/68 "2009-08-19T01:24:48Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Great job staying on topic, dickweed. Was it on topic of you to insult another poster and your own son at the same time? No. It was incredibly rude and ironic, which is all I was pointing out. Apparently hurling insults is just your MO, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-american-experiment-over/506581.md?page=3)