# Is the "Betsy Ross" flag racist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376 "2019-07-02T01:59:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/181 "2019-07-10T22:16:53Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > Ever try to wear red shoelaces? I did and was called a skinhead. Well, AFAICT that’s got nothing to do with any exercise of corporate branding power or any celebrity’s alleged “influence over social media”. Many people assume that red shoelaces are a white-power skinhead symbol merely because [many white-power skinheads wear red shoelaces to deliberately convey exactly that message](https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/boots-and-laces). In other words, skinheads used a particular, originally neutral, symbol enough that they successfully associated it with their toxic ideology. No significant pushback or “reclaiming” movement took place in response to that. And now people who want to use that symbol without ideological associations are bitching that other people might interpret it contrary to their intentions or point out that it **does** have recognized ideological associations. Like I said: _Can’t be bothered to shoot the enemy, always ready to shoot the messenger._ ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/182 "2019-07-10T22:57:34Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > We non-racist Americans need to reclaim the Betsy Ross Flag, and the Don’t Tread on Me snake flag, and every other American symbol the racists try to co-opt. Reclaiming symbols is doable; in the 1980s, the non-profit “People for the American Way” was quite successful in reclaiming the flag itself, as well as “the American way” and related sentiments, for the left. [People for the American Way - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_American_Way) Apparently there’s an overt effort on the right to stop the association of rainbow images with gay rights, and change that association to white supremacism. Quite recently they started using a variant on their “Pepe the Frog” with a rainbow wig and clown makeup: > [@](#): > > The “Honkler” meme originated on 4chan board /pol/ in February 2019 in a thread titled “Operation Honk”.[3] Referred to as Honk Honk or Honkler, it quickly gained popularity across the internet in far-right groups, where Honkler imagery portrays antisemitic, homophobic, transphobic, and racist tropes. > **[Clown World](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Clown_World)** > > Clown World (emojified as 🤡🌏, also known as Honkler, Heil Honkler or Honk Honkler) is an alt-right, neo-Nazi propaganda meme and dog whistle.\[1\] The "Honkler" image first appeared on 4chan in February 2019.\[2\] Clown World and Honkler have been... ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/183 "2019-07-14T09:07:46Z")
Oh, look at that - being anti-racist [pays dividends](https://www.forbes.com/sites/korihale/2019/07/08/colin-kaepernick-spurs-nikes-stock-after-it-pulled-betsy-ross-flag-sneaker/#3099b9937ff6). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/184 "2019-07-14T12:25:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Many people assume that red shoelaces are a white-power skinhead symbol merely because [many white-power skinheads wear red shoelaces to deliberately convey exactly that message](https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/boots-and-laces). (aside) Huh. Did that change recently ? Or is it an American thing ? 'cause back when I had long hair (… or just hair, period _sigh_) red shoelaces on a skinhead/punk meant “redskin”, the socialist/anarchist skinhead predecessors of the modern antifa. Guys who’d go around looking for the more traditional sort of skinheads to fight with, basically. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/185 "2019-07-14T21:44:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … > Many people assume that red shoelaces are a white-power skinhead symbol merely because [many white-power skinheads wear red shoelaces to deliberately convey exactly that message](https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/boots-and-laces). > > In other words, skinheads used a particular, originally neutral, symbol enough that they successfully associated it with their toxic ideology. …] Not so “successfully” as I have never hear it before this post. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/186 "2019-07-15T03:48:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not so “successfully” as I have never hear it before this post. I hate to break it to you, **DrDeth** , but whether you personally happen to have heard of a particular cultural symbol prior to some more clued-in person pointing it out to you is not determinative of whether the adoption of that symbol qualifies as “successful”. If you’ve got a counter-cite supporting the claim that this symbol **isn’t** recognized as having the meaning attributed to it, feel free to discuss it. But your stubborn anecdotal insistence along the lines of _“well it can’t really be a thing because **I’ve** never heard of it before”_ is not persuasive. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/187 "2019-07-15T03:53:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, look at that - being anti-racist [pays dividends](https://www.forbes.com/sites/korihale/2019/07/08/colin-kaepernick-spurs-nikes-stock-after-it-pulled-betsy-ross-flag-sneaker/#3099b9937ff6). Not being anti-racist. Just getting a lot of publicity. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/188 "2019-07-15T04:35:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not being anti-racist. > > Just getting a lot of publicity. Well, the publicity was specifically for Nike’s decision to discontinue the “Betsy Ross flag” sneaker because of complaints that the flag has racist associations, due to its historical connection with the slavery era (and its consequent adoption by white nationalists). You can certainly disagree about whether Nike’s anti-racist justification for cancelling the sneaker launch is sensible or sincere, but there’s no denying that what they’re getting publicity for is, at least nominally, an anti-racist stance. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/189 "2019-07-15T09:38:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not being anti-racist. > > Just getting a lot of publicity. “Just getting a lot of publicity.”…for being anti-racist. It’s laughable that you think the two are unconnected. Do you think if Nike had a lot of publicity for, say, _putting_ swastikas on their sneakers, their share price would go _up_? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/190 "2019-07-15T17:57:58Z")
The Betsy Ross flag is NOT the same as the swastika. Not in any way. It’s only recently that some group of dumbass racists decided to start using it. Otherwise, it’s always been fairly benign. Most people wouldn’t even know the association. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/191 "2019-07-15T20:24:08Z")
Nike stock got a boost because they got publicity for helping racists co-opt a symbol of the American revolution. They took no anti-racist stance. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/192 "2019-07-17T01:43:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The Betsy Ross flag is NOT the same as the swastika. Not in any way. It’s only recently that some group of dumbass racists decided to start using it. Otherwise, it’s always been fairly benign. > > Most people wouldn’t even know the association. The same can be said of the “okay” hand-gesture. > [@](#): > > The hoax planned on 4Chan was simple - to ridicule media by convincing reporters of a fake white power symbol. The preposterous reasoning to be given was that in a hand making the OK sign, the three straight fingers make a “W” shape, while the closed thumb and forefinger symbolise the letter “P”. > > It was wildly successful, and the popularity of the gesture used to mock left-leaning people or “troll” viewers exploded. > In the two years since, however, its constant use by right-wing or extremist individuals has turned the hidden meaning into a genuine connotation. > > As the US Anti-Defamation League (ADL) puts it: “By 2019, at least some white supremacists seem to have abandoned the ironic or satiric intent behind the original trolling campaign and used the symbol as a sincere expression of white supremacy.” > **[When is the 'OK' gesture not OK?](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48293817)** > > Some people claim the "OK" sign has turned into a white nationalist symbol. What is behind that? A U.S. history fan might see the Betsy Ross flag sneakers and buy them as an expression of interest in the historical reference----but might soon encounter many people who’d assume that the intent of wearing the sneakers was to express a belief in white supremacism. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/193 "2019-07-17T01:52:57Z")
Which I find disturbing. I wish more people would stop letting these 4chan types ruin everything. Pretty soon, we’re not going to have a symbol left that ISN’T associated with white supremacy! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/194 "2019-07-17T02:04:23Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > They took no anti-racist stance. Well, but they did, though. You can disagree with Nike about whether the Betsy Ross flag is or should be considered a racist symbol, but when Nike said that they didn’t want their sneakers associated with the Betsy Ross flag because of the flag’s (alleged) connotations of racism, that was _ipso facto_ taking an anti-racist stance. You can also, as I said earlier, disagree about whether Nike’s stance was sincere or sensible, but it’s still factually correct to describe the stance itself as “anti-racist”, because it was rejecting a particular symbol on account of its (alleged) racist associations. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > I wish more people would stop letting these 4chan types ruin everything. How exactly are you “stopping” them? Share your secret, and maybe “more people” will be able to join you in keeping everything from being ruined. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/195 "2019-07-17T02:18:20Z")
Perhaps continue to use said flags, or gestures, and ignore the whole “oh, the ‘okay’ sign actually means White Power!!!”, for example. NOT give in to a bunch of trolls. Honestly, I don’t think Nike was doing it to be anti-racist so much as they were doing it because they were afraid they’d lose money if people accused them of being racist. I doubt enough people were aware of the “white supremacists adopting the Betsy Ross flag”. Either that or they figured the controversy alone would sell more sneakers. “Look at how anti-racist and conscious Nike is! Isn’t that great!” But maybe I’m just getting more cynical as I get older, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/196 "2019-07-17T02:57:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Perhaps continue to use said flags, or gestures, and ignore the whole “oh, the ‘okay’ sign actually means White Power!!!”, for example. NOT give in to a bunch of trolls. How are you conveying your intention about the meaning of said flag or gesture to people who don’t already know what you intend by its use, though? Once a symbol becomes ambiguous in its interpretation, there’s no way for a random person to determine what any other random person means by using that symbol, considered in isolation. The recommendation “just go on using the symbol and ignore any possible ambiguities of interpretation” kind of suggests the privileged position of somebody who isn’t the target of racist symbols and doesn’t have to worry about possible consequences of misinterpreting the symbol. As a white person, I can safely ignore all sorts of potentially racist connotations of ambiguous symbols that I might think twice about ignoring if I were non-white. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Honestly, I don’t think Nike was doing it to be anti-racist so much as they were doing it because they were afraid they’d lose money if people accused them of being racist. Or maybe, as **you with the face** suggested, the whole thing was just a PR ploy by Nike in the first place. Taking the issue of racism seriously doesn’t mean we have to take every anti-racist stance proclaimed by a highly sophisticated major corporate marketing department entirely at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/197 "2019-07-17T03:20:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Or maybe, as **you with the face** suggested, the whole thing was just a PR ploy by Nike in the first place. Taking the issue of racism seriously doesn’t mean we have to take every anti-racist stance proclaimed by a highly sophisticated major corporate marketing department entirely at face value. That was kind of my point. 😉 As for continuing to use something, what ARE you going to do, if they start adopting every symbol to use for hate? It’s like Michael Bolton said in _Office Space_, “Why should I change? He’s the one who sucks.” I think EVERYONE should continue using said symbol. I’m tired of the assholes winning, that’s all. It’s pissing me off. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/198 "2019-07-17T03:46:12Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > … > > A U.S. history fan might see the Betsy Ross flag sneakers and buy them as an expression of interest in the historical reference----but might soon encounter many people who’d assume that the intent of wearing the sneakers was to express a belief in white supremacism. Which would be exactly one person, so that’s rather doubtful. And I am not even sure if he is sincere. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/199 "2019-07-17T03:49:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > How are you conveying your intention about the meaning of said flag or gesture to people who don’t already know what you intend by its use, though? Once a symbol becomes ambiguous in its interpretation, there’s no way for a random person to determine what any other random person means by using that symbol, considered in isolation. > > The recommendation “just go on using the symbol and ignore any possible ambiguities of interpretation” kind of suggests the privileged position of somebody who isn’t the target of racist symbols and doesn’t have to worry about possible consequences of misinterpreting the symbol. As a white person, I can safely ignore all sorts of potentially racist connotations of ambiguous symbols that I might think twice about ignoring if I were non-white. … Because i dont know anyone who thinks the Ok sign or the betsey Ross flag is racist, so I could use either with a clear conscience. Now the “dont tread on me” flag is a bit different, i will admit. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2019, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/200 "2019-07-17T04:00:13Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > As for continuing to use something, what ARE you going to do, if they start adopting every symbol to use for hate? Isn’t that a bit of an _argumentum ad hyperbole_, though? It’s not like there are literally no symbols left that haven’t been co-opted for hate speech, nor are there ever likely to be. I still get through my days just fine not using the “OK” hand gesture or the Betsy Ross flag symbol, even though I don’t assume that anybody I see using them must have malicious motives. In other words, I would be a bit disappointed in myself if a bunch of white supremacists and/or 4chan trolls were really capable of putting a serious dent in my self-expression by their symbol use. I like to think I’m far more articulate and adaptable in my semiotic capabilities than those sorts of assholes tend to be. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > It’s like Michael Bolton said in _Office Space_, “Why should I change? He’s the one who sucks.” I’m not very familiar with _Office Space_, but if internet quote sites are to be trusted, that dialogue is about a man with the same name as a famous singer (whom he doesn’t like) being mad that his name is associated with the singer? And when his friend suggests that he use a slightly different name instead so he won’t have to deal with that association, the first guy objects to it on the grounds that he has somehow a better right to the original name, because the singer is “the one who sucks”? ISTM that that dialogue’s more of a comic send-up of a self-absorbed person’s refusal to acknowledge inconvenient reality than an effective model for resisting racist inroads on shared culture. I mean, obviously the singer Michael Bolton has as much right to the name “Michael Bolton” as whiny-office-guy Michael Bolton does, right? And obviously whiny-office-guy Michael Bolton’s insistence on using his original name isn’t going to accomplish jack-shit in actually getting people to stop associating that name with the far better-known singer Michael Bolton, right? So I’m not clear why whiny-office-guy Michael Bolton is being held up as a model to emulate here. If we don’t want to change our use of some word or symbol that has become associated with something/someone we don’t like, then okay, we don’t have to change it. But that doesn’t mean that the association doesn’t actually exist, or that our refusal to recognize it is anything more than egotistical denial. (Of course, that bypasses the question of how much the undesired association in question actually **does** exist, which in the case of the name Michael Bolton is undeniably definite and in the case of the Betsy Ross flag is still quite debatable.) > [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think EVERYONE should continue using said symbol. Well, like I said, that tends to seem easier to those of us for whom white-supremacy symbols, or symbols that could possibly be intended to carry a white-supremacy message, convey no direct threat. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m tired of the assholes winning, that’s all. It’s pissing me off. You tell 'em, Michael Bolton. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376.md?page=11)