# Is the "Betsy Ross" flag racist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376 "2019-07-02T01:59:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CAH66](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@CAH66](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CAH66)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/21 "2019-07-02T16:31:34Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > It’s my understanding that Colin Kaepernick’s objection to the Betsy Ross flag is not because of it’s recent use by racists groups. Rather, it stems from the same reasoning that leads him not to stand during the playing of the National Anthem: it represents an inherently racists governmental system. His reasoning is that the United States, as constituted at the time of the Revolution, had the choice to be non-racist, and instead specifically institutionalized racism, especially slavery. So to idolize a symbol from that time period in our history is to idolize the institution that continued to oppress his ancestors. > > It’s others who piled onto his objections by noting the use of the flag by racist groups recently. That kind of objection could be applied to basically all of human history though, and views all of human activity through a very narrow, one-dimensional lens. I personally find the idea that you cannot celebrate _anything_ if it occurred during a time of injustice to be so ridiculous that it genuinely distracts from legitimate criticisms. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/22 "2019-07-02T18:09:39Z")
No, no it is not. Nor is the Ok sign. Nor is the \* Dont tread on me flag. \* ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/23 "2019-07-02T18:32:59Z")
[Arizona tells Nike to go fuck itself](https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/business/nike-arizona-betsy-ross-trnd/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/24 "2019-07-02T18:52:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The Betsy Ross flag with the 13 stars in a circle didn’t become popular until the centennial celebrations in 1876, when Ross’s family started pushing the Betsy Ross story. A [timely article from _Threads_ magazine about Ross and the flag](https://www.threadsmagazine.com/2019/06/14/betsy-ross-u-s-flag?source=W3811ENL&tp=i-H43-BC-Fp1-lOpCN-1o-4ZjN-1c-lOvta-1j0AlD&sourcekey=W3811ENL&utm_campaign=threads-eletter&utm_source=eletter&utm_medium=eletter&utm_content=th-eletter&cid=60823&mid=700404475): > [@](#): > > In fact, no one credited Betsy Ross as the flag creator during her lifetime, aside from relatives and friends to whom she told this story. It wasn’t until Betsy’s grandson William Canby made a speech to the Historical Society of Pennsylvania in 1870 that Betsy was first recognized as the flag’s creator. While Canby conducted thorough research into the history of the flag and interviewed his mother and two aunts (all of whom were Betsy’s daughters) and one of Betsy’s nieces before giving the speech, it was too late to get firsthand knowledge by this time. […] > > Although we will probably never know if Betsy created the original U.S. flag, there are records showing she was paid as an official flag maker for the U.S. Navy during the Revolutionary War. > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > It’s my understanding that Colin Kaepernick’s objection to the Betsy Ross flag is not because of it’s recent use by racists groups. Rather, it stems from the same reasoning that leads him not to stand during the playing of the National Anthem: it represents an inherently racists governmental system. His reasoning is that the United States, as constituted at the time of the Revolution, had the choice to be non-racist, and instead specifically institutionalized racism, especially slavery. […] > > It’s others who piled onto his objections by noting the use of the flag by racist groups recently. May well be: the _Wall Street Journal_ article apparently discussing the issue in detail, which I can’t read because paywall, is briefly described [here](https://time.com/5619013/nike-sneakers-betsy-ross-flag/): > [@](#): > > The sneakers’ release this week was canceled after Kaepernick, a former NFL quarterback, activist and Nike ambassador, reportedly weighed in on the flag design as potentially offensive because of its connection to an era of slavery. The WSJ also reported that the early flag has also been co-opted in recent years by some white nationalist groups. Update: Republican governor Doug Ducey of Arizona is apparently [canceling an offered financial incentive package for Nike to build a factory in Goodyear, AZ, on account of miffed feelings about the withdrawal of the “Betsy Ross flag” sneaker](https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/02/business/nike-arizona-betsy-ross-trnd/index.html). I’m not sure it makes a whole lot of sense economically to cut off Arizona workers’ noses to spite Nike’s face, especially since the whole foofaraw is probably providing tons of valuable free publicity for Nike. ETA: ninja’d by **Darren Garrison** , with one caveat: > [@Darren Garrison](#): > > Arizona tells Nike to go fuck itself. Well, more like “Arizona tells Nike to go give other people the jobs they were being invited to give Arizonans”. I also don’t really get how people are justifying spinning this in the online outrage uproar as Nike being “unpatriotic”. ISTM that there’s nothing unpatriotic about saying that racist associations disqualify a particular symbol from being an acceptable signifier of patriotism, even if there’s room for disagreement about whether the “Betsy Ross flag” symbol actually **does** have racist associations. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/25 "2019-07-02T19:25:03Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I don’t want the founding symbols for my country to become co-opted by racists. I’ll defend your right to burn any fashion of the US flag, but to ban certain versions because certain idiots want to adopt it? 😕 “Ban”? Who is suggesting any form of “ban” on the “Betsy Ross flag” symbol? AFAICT, this is about one company deciding to stop their use of the symbol as a marketing device for their brand because they feel it has racist associations that are bad for their image. Personally, I never saw anything particularly patriotic in the symbolism of slapping an American flag on a grimy old sneaker anyway. It’s not as outright mystifying to me as the mindset of the people who think it’s patriotic to [literally use American flag iconography on a doormat](https://www.wayfair.com/rugs/pdx/rubber-cal-inc-patriotic-american-flag-door-mat-rcin1027.html), but it’s still a bit bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/26 "2019-07-02T19:56:14Z")
This is stupid. Is every US symbol pre 1865 racist? I have some coins that are pre 1865 should I throw them away? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/27 "2019-07-02T20:11:08Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Is every US symbol pre 1865 racist? Well, what did the pre-1865 US stand for, ideologically? Many different things, including legal chattel slavery of black people. I think it’s a bit oversensitive to get all indignant when somebody not unreasonably points out that the history of American slavery tends to associate pre-Civil War America with racism. (Not that the history of post-Reconstruction American racial segregation and oppression did a whole lot to fix that association, mind you.) > [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > I have some coins that are pre 1865 should I throw them away? Um, this seems to be taking snowflakey overreaction to a fairly extreme level. I am not seeing anybody saying that every instance of any symbol associated with the US prior to 1865 needs to be “thrown away”. Just that maybe such a symbol isn’t the best marketing choice for a sales campaign built around themes of racial justice and equality. Jeez, people, maybe just calm down a bit? Neither Nike nor Colin Kaepernick is telling you that you have to “throw away” every instance of American iconography dating from the days of legalized slavery. But they are also not exactly wrong when they acknowledge that the existence of legalized slavery in those days somewhat tarnishes our self-congratulatory image of early America as the good old days of freedom and equality. ---
**Author:** ![pmwgreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pmwgreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pmwgreen)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/28 "2019-07-02T20:25:37Z")
It’s like prayer at football games. What version of the flag wouldn’t be disrespectful on a shoe? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/29 "2019-07-02T21:07:00Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Um, this seems to be taking snowflakey overreaction to a fairly extreme level. Yes, that _is_ a good description of Kaepernick! ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/30 "2019-07-02T21:17:55Z")
The US flag code law probably would not allow a flag on a shoe but that may only apply to the current flag. Also there are many cases where this law is ignored when people make shirts , etc with the flag . > **[United States Flag Code](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code)** > > The United States Flag Code establishes advisory rules for display and care of the national flag of the United States of America. It is Chapter 5 of Title 4 of the United States Code (4 U.S.C. § 5 et seq). Although this is a U.S. federal law, the code is not mandatory: it uses non-binding language like "should" and "custom" throughout and does not prescribe any penalties for failure to follow the guidelines. It was "not intended to proscribe conduct" and was written to "codify various existin Se... ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/31 "2019-07-02T21:35:56Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yes, that _is_ a good description of Kaepernick! :dubious: Who actually fits the description of “overreacting snowflake” here? The activist who allegedly said to a major corporation something along the lines of _“Um, this slavery-era US flag frequently used as an emblem by modern right-wing ‘patriot’ groups is maybe not a good look for a sneaker-sales ad campaign based on my protests against racial injustice”_? Or the Republican governor who threw a public tantrum about the corporation’s marketing decision, to the extent of rescinding a financial-incentive package to encourage the corporation to build a factory in his state to provide jobs to his constituents, while [whining](https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/doug-ducey-nike-tweets-draw-ire-black-lives-matter-11321691) _“We don’t need to suck up to companies that consciously denigrate our nation’s history”_? We may disagree with Kaepernick and Nike about how salient the racist associations of the “Betsy Ross flag” symbol really are, but the honest-to-gosh overreacting snowflakes here are the folks losing their shit at them for allegedly “unpatriotic” transgressions when all they did was to make a marketing decision about their own products. Chill out, people. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/32 "2019-07-02T21:49:29Z")
[quote=“Kimstu, post:31, topic:836376”] :dubious: Who actually fits the description of “overreacting snowflake” here? /QUOTE] Kaepernick. He has graduated from “principled objector” to “pathetic clown.” ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/33 "2019-07-02T22:03:19Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Specifically, [this one](https://www.usflagstore.com/Betsy_Ross_Flag_3x5_Nylon_p/60-100-04035.htm?gclid=Cj0KCQjw3uboBRDCARIsAO2XcYBje-yNRLd3iTcY6pBAVOTimBF8PlNaRb5dggBDQWNTmfIBYKG3AwYaAtgxEALw_wcB&gdffi=756fc149ac63423d85eebbbe7774fcd1&gdfms=5FE6822DA1154E9082852384A45CDE08). > And, yes, I know Betsy Ross probably didn’t really design that flag. > . Of course she didn’t. It’s made of nylon. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/34 "2019-07-02T22:09:47Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Kaepernick. He has graduated from “principled objector” to “pathetic clown.” That just seems like a really weird and melodramatic assessment of the mere act of (allegedly) telling the company that he has a sponsorship contract with that a patriotic symbol from the era of slavery is widely perceived as having racist connotations, and therefore isn’t the best marketing choice for the company’s product. (And it’s not like Kaepernick is just making up that assessment out of his own head, either: the “Betsy Ross flag” has been described as problematic for a while now, as noted in [this article from September 2016](https://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/2016/09/forest_hills_superintendent_is.html): ) > [@](#): > > The Betsy Ross flag is controversial, in part, because it is embraced by white nationalist organizations whose members claim a superior birthright. And you think that merely pointing that out is somehow **more** “pathetic” and “overreacting” than the response of the governor who went to the lengths of nixing a tax-break package for the company (or, in your own somewhat overheated rhetoric, telling the company to “go fuck itself”) to provide jobs to the citizens of his own state, just because he was so outraged at the company’s internal marketing decision? :dubious: **Somebody** ’s being pathetic clowns and oversensitive snowflakes here, but I don’t think it’s Kaepernick. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/35 "2019-07-02T22:10:29Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yes, that _is_ a good description of Kaepernick! Lil thinskinned aintcha? Back in the day, we didn’t get offended every time someone said something we didn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/36 "2019-07-02T22:21:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > That just seems like a really weird and melodramatic assessment of the mere act of (allegedly) telling the company that he has a sponsorship contract with that a patriotic symbol from the era of slavery is widely perceived as having racist connotations, and therefore isn’t the best marketing choice for the company’s product. Where is it “widely perceived” as having “racist connotations”? This is the first time I’ve ever heard of it. I truly and sincerely hope that Nike looses a shit-ton of business over this idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/37 "2019-07-02T22:24:41Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Where is it “widely perceived” as having “racist connotations”? This is the first time I’ve ever heard of it. > … “widely perceived” meaning " **I** _think so, thereby…"_:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/38 "2019-07-02T22:46:38Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Where is it “widely perceived” as having “racist connotations”? This is the first time I’ve ever heard of it. Are you seriously suggesting that something can’t be “widely” familiar even though you’ve never heard of it before? Because that seems like a rather unrealistic benchmark. As I quoted from a September 2016 article in my previous post: > [@](#): > > The Betsy Ross flag is controversial, in part, because it is embraced by white nationalist organizations whose members claim a superior birthright. Here’s a [January 2019 comment from someone on r/vexillology about “Controversial flags”](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/ad177o/controversial_flags/): > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Why is Canadian red flag controversial? I thought it was just the Canadian flag before the leaf? > > > > It’s used by white supremacist groups to attempt to go back to the original mono-ethnic British Canada compared to today’s > > I mean, I guess the same way a Betsy Ross flag is used? > [@Darren Garrison](#): > > I truly and sincerely hope that Nike looses a shit-ton of business over this idiocy. 😕 Your inexplicable fury over what is just an internal marketing decision by Nike about sneaker decoration, based on a potentially sensitive PR issue about which reasonable people can disagree, is coming across as more and more baffling. I mean, who tf cares if Nike might be erring a bit on the side of over-caution about the symbolic connotations of their shoe design? You are fuming as though Nike just launched a billboard campaign declaring “ **Darren Garrison** Can Suck Our Big Nylon-Mesh Dick” or something. Anyway, not to make you even madder, but I kind of doubt that this particular marketing decision is going to cause Nike to “loose” any business. Their PR people are probably not stupid and have likely figured out the relative pros and cons of making this call. (Including the fact that any business they might have lost from people outraged over their discontinuation of the “Betsy Ross flag” symbol was probably already lost when Nike hired Kaepernick as brand ambassador in the first place. And that [seems to have worked out quite well for them](https://www.vox.com/2018/9/24/17895704/nike-colin-kaepernick-boycott-6-billion) as of six months ago or so: ) > [@](#): > > The boycott against Nike for making Colin Kaepernick the face of its latest ad campaign doesn’t seem to be having the desired effect. > > According to CBS, Nike’s stock has soared over the past year, seeing a 5 percent increase since Labor Day — the day it revealed that Kaepernick, the former quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, was the star of company’s 30th-anniversary “Just Do It” campaign. So yeah, Nike is probably going to make a lot more than it loses off this latest wave of controversy-sparked free publicity, especially if their critics go on frothing at the mouth in this belligerent but weirdly entertaining way. Heck, [not even all Arizonans are on board](https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/doug-ducey-nike-tweets-draw-ire-black-lives-matter-11321691) with their governor’s outraged decision to tell Nike, as you put it, “to go fuck itself”: > [@](#): > > While Ducey drew a lot of applause from conservatives, others were not so pleased. > > “That Ducey would eliminate jobs for the people of Arizona for this? It’s very heartbreaking, but it’s so enlightening,” said Katt McKinney of Black Lives Matter Arizona in Phoenix. […] > > Mary Grace Wendell, a retired schoolteacher, urged citizens to opposed Ducey’s directive. > > “It’s time for Goodyear to stand up and take care of their community even if the governor of their state thinks otherwise,” she said in a Facebook message. > > U.S. Representative Ruben Gallego said Ducey was acting presidential. > > “Doug Ducey is taking a page out of Donald Trump’s playbook – playing politics rather than focusing on creating jobs for Arizonans,” Gallego said on Twitter. The Congressman said District 7 would welcome the factory, and invited residents to contact his office if they needed help following the announcement. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/39 "2019-07-02T23:05:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Your inexplicable fury over what is just an internal marketing decision by Nike about sneaker decoration, based on a potentially sensitive PR issue about which reasonable people can disagree, is coming across as more and more baffling. You sure are good at projecting strong emotions on to short text messages that you read on a screen. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/40 "2019-07-02T23:07:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > So yeah, Nike is probably going to make a lot more than it loses off this latest wave of controversy-sparked free publicity, especially if their critics go on frothing at the mouth in this belligerent but weirdly entertaining way. Possibly. I was expressing a hope, not an expectation. I’m well aware that idiocy is often rewarded, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376.md?page=3)