# Is the "Betsy Ross" flag racist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376 "2019-07-02T01:59:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/101 "2019-07-03T23:27:58Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > So just where does the boundary lie? At what point do we say enough is enough? > There are T-shirts that read [“LGBT: Liberty, Guns, Bible and Trump.”](https://www.amazon.com/support-LGBT-Liberty-Bible-T-shirt/dp/B07KWP16CC) Does this mean that lesbians, gays, bisexual and transgender people can’t use ‘LGBT’ anymore, since its meaning has been hijacked? :dubious: Again, nobody is saying that anybody “can’t” use anything. One company made a decision not to use one symbol, and didn’t say anything about how anybody else should decide on its use. So why does that upset you so much? As for the conservative parody LGBT shirts, I don’t think anybody’s ever seriously going to consider that reactionary rightwingers have “hijacked” the acronym. For one thing, “LGBT” was already associated with anti-reactionary ideology much more strongly than the Betsy Ross flag was ever associated with anti-racism. For another, eventually even most of the reactionary rightwingers are going to be embarrassed about their Trump support, so they won’t want to keep using their version of the acronym. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/102 "2019-07-04T00:11:22Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If you’re a business, your goal is not to preserve national symbols or keep racists from winning. It’s to make money. > > Are you willing to go into debt to help Nike pay for shoes that no one wants to buy? I’m certainly not. Well, I don’t really care what happens to Nike, considering the way they treat the people who work for them. They deserve to lose money, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/103 "2019-07-04T00:18:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: Again, nobody is saying that anybody “can’t” use anything. One company made a decision not to use one symbol, and didn’t say anything about how anybody else should decide on its use. So why does that upset you so much? Could we at least come to an understanding in this thread that when we are saying that people “can’t” do this or that, we are not talking about a legal prohibition? Everyone understands this, but for some reason you need to keep beating down this strawman. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/104 "2019-07-04T01:11:18Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You never answered my question. Do you display the Betsy Ross flag now? Or is all this happening in the land of the hypothetical? Who cares? This isn’t some court of law where you get to decide if I have standing. I’ve certainly worn it in the past. > [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s not about “giving” racist shitheads anything. You can’t expect people to pretend that racist connotations **that are already widely recognized** simply don’t exist, just because you don’t **want** the Betsy Ross flag to have any associations with racism. You may not understand it, but if you can’t use a symbol in polite company because someone might be offended because some racists have used it, or because some of the founding fathers were slave owners, you’ve ceded that symbol to the racists - they’re the only ones who will still use it. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Like I said, reasonable people can disagree about how salient the racist connotations of the Betsy Ross flag really are. But declaring, in effect, _“We’re going to ignore, deny and minimize any such connotations in order to preserve the ideological wholesomeness of this flag design as a national symbol”_ is mere wishful thinking. Our perception of symbols and their associations can change and diversify, over time and depending on circumstances. You can’t expect any particular symbol to remain perpetually immune to that evolutionary process just because it’s The Flag. I’m not ignoring, minimizing or denying such connotations. Hell, I acknowledged them in the very post you quoted. I’m saying that saying “It’s a racist symbol” minimizes, denies and ignores the other good connotations that arose from the founding fathers. It’s neither lily white, or a stain on humanity. To pretend that it’s so terrible that people will be offended by its sight due to its problems with slavery without people like Kapernick leading them there is pretty damn silly in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/105 "2019-07-04T02:00:18Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I’m saying that saying “It’s a racist symbol” minimizes, denies and ignores the other good connotations that arose from the founding fathers. …LOL. America fetishizes the constitution and holds the “founding fathers” to a standard of reverence that rivals godhood. You really don’t have to worry about people “ignoring the other good connotations” of these long-dead-white-men. As long as America exists they won’t be forgotten. You’ve got nothing to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/106 "2019-07-04T02:14:29Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …LOL. > > America fetishizes the constitution and holds the “founding fathers” to a standard of reverence that rivals godhood. You really don’t have to worry about people “ignoring the other good connotations” of these long-dead-white-men. As long as America exists they won’t be forgotten. You’ve got nothing to worry about. Ehh, I’d generally agree. But when we’re in a world where a shoe company actually worries about putting an early version of the flag on their shoes for fear of offending folks, I’m not so sure. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/107 "2019-07-04T02:32:18Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Ehh, I’d generally agree. But when we’re in a world where a shoe company actually worries about putting an early version of the flag on their shoes for fear of offending folks, I’m not so sure. …“a shoe company not doing something” is not cause for alarm. In case you didn’t know this: shoe companies **don’t do things** all the time. What is it, exactly, “you are not so sure” of? You think Americans are all of a sudden going to stop “worshiping” the founding fathers? It wasn’t about the \*\*fear \*\*of offending folks. It actually \*\*did \*\*offend folks. Not that it matters, because as has been pointed out by others in this thread Nike is ultimately motivated by **money**. The Kapernick campaign was a huge success for them, and thanks to the voices of outrage I have no doubt that this will pay off for them as well. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/108 "2019-07-04T03:56:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …“a shoe company not doing something” is not cause for alarm. In case you didn’t know this: shoe companies **don’t do things** all the time. What is it, exactly, “you are not so sure” of? You think Americans are all of a sudden going to stop “worshiping” the founding fathers? > > It wasn’t about the \*\*fear \*\*of offending folks. It actually \*\*did \*\*offend folks. Not that it matters, because as has been pointed out by others in this thread Nike is ultimately motivated by **money**. The Kapernick campaign was a huge success for them, and thanks to the voices of outrage I have no doubt that this will pay off for them as well. Meh, “worship” is your bullshit word. I don’t worship them, they were imperfect men. And yeah, Nike was worried about losing **money** from **fear** of offending folks. If the had actually **done** it, they **might** have offended people, but they didn’t do it. It offends folks like myself with their manufacturing habits for years, but somehow that doesn’t make them **fear** losing **money** , so they keep doing it. (Yeah, my bolding doesn’t mean anything, I’m pretty sure yours didn’t either.) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/109 "2019-07-04T07:00:13Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Meh, “worship” is your bullshit word. …yes! Yes it was! Congratulations on figuring out that I wrote the word “worship.” Thats what Great Debates is all about folks! Figuring out the important things. > [@](#): > > I don’t worship them, they were imperfect men. You may not worship them, but you worry enough about “the other good connotations that arose from the founding fathers” to have concerns that a shoe business decided not to do something. If the other the other good connotations that arose from the founding fathers are actually good connotations then they will stand on their own. Nothing a shoe company will do will change that. You have nothing to worry about. > [@](#): > > And yeah, Nike was worried about losing **money** from **fear** of offending folks. If the had actually **done** it, they **might** have offended people, but they didn’t do it. It offends folks like myself with their manufacturing habits for years, but somehow that doesn’t make them **fear** losing **money** , so they keep doing it. But they did offend people: and that person told them he thought it wasn’t a good idea. Nike also had every reason to fear that they would offend people who get offended whenever shoe-companies make decisions to not do something that may or may not offend people. And when Nike made the decision not to do something, those people ended up getting offended. The fear of not offending the easily offended did not stop Nike from doing something that ended up offending them. > [@](#): > > (Yeah, my bolding doesn’t mean anything, I’m pretty sure yours didn’t either.) **Sure…** ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/110 "2019-07-04T07:28:10Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But they did offend people: and that person told them he thought it wasn’t a good idea. Nike also had every reason to fear that they would offend people who get offended whenever shoe-companies make decisions to not do something that may or may not offend people. And when Nike made the decision not to do something, those people ended up getting offended. The fear of not offending the easily offended did not stop Nike from doing something that ended up offending them. Heh, everyone’s offended these days, huh? You can’t win. Meh, who cares, I’m ordering a Betsy Ross flag patch to sew onto my jacket. Worrying about who’s offended is for saps at this point. Minor nitpick:If they did base their decision on Kapernick’s advice, he’s a person, not a people. Considering how well your last post was edited, you may be nearly as impaired as I am this holiday’s eve. Happy 4th. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/111 "2019-07-04T07:31:57Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Heh, everyone’s offended these days, huh? …yep. > [@](#): > > You can’t win. Nope. [/END THREAD] ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/112 "2019-07-04T08:02:49Z")
Yeah, and you can’t break even or opt out, either. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/113 "2019-07-04T09:35:27Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Heh, everyone’s offended these days, huh? You can’t win. Meh, who cares, I’m ordering a Betsy Ross flag patch to sew onto my jacket. Worrying about who’s offended is for saps at this point. The thing is, the only side being outraged in this situation are the people outraged that Nike would dare withdraw a symbol that is used by white supremacists. Nike can’t avoid people being outraged, but they can make sure the side that is outraged is the side that they aren’t actively marketing to. Nike is clearly running an anti-racist ad campaign. So they chose not to offend the anti-racists. And, as a bonus, they get free publicity from all the offended people publicly announcing their offense. To me, the “offense culture” problem seems to not be people being offended, but people being offended that people are offended, or being offended that other people’s offense is being taken seriously. I myself do not feel more offended than I used to be, and I doubt you do, either. No, it’s just that more people are aware of other people’s offense, and then offended by it. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/114 "2019-07-04T12:45:48Z")
Charlottesville no longer big fans of Thomas Jefferson. You can probably guess why [Charlottesville Scraps Thomas Jefferson Holiday For Day Observing End Of Slavery | HuffPost Voices](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/charlottesville-scraps-holiday-of-thomas-jeffersons-birthday-for-day-observing-emancipation-of-slaves_n_5d1cce06e4b04c48140db2fa) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/115 "2019-07-04T12:50:32Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Heh, everyone’s offended these days, huh? You can’t win. Meh, who cares, I’m ordering a Betsy Ross flag patch to sew onto my jacket. Worrying about who’s offended is for saps at this point. And so the corporate manipulation is complete: to get back at Kaepernick (who is wholly indifferent to you and what you do) now you’re going to spend money on a flag you didn’t even really care about until this week. Then you’re going to wear it as a protest maneuver a thing, thereby politicizing it and enabling others to interpret it as something more than just our early nation’s flag. Some might see it as a symbol of anti-Kaepernickism, and some might think is synonymous to anti-anyone who dares to speak against racism. Now you might insist these interpretations are wrong. “I’m just honoring our nation’s founding!” you might say, feigning doe-eyed innocence. But the thing is, these interpretations aren’t wrong. When you and a bunch of other angry white people start displaying this flag, it’s going to be real obvious you’re only doing it because 1) Nike has manipulated you into doing so and 2) you have a hard on for Kaepernick. From one Doper to another, your smartest move is to not let yourself be Nike’s tool. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/116 "2019-07-04T13:11:39Z")
> [@UCBearcats](#): > > This is not racist. Kaepernick is a rebel rouser who needs to get kicked in the junk by an NFL kicker wearing a size 12 Mike cleat. So your argument is that you don’t agree with CK’s campaign to oppose brutality against black men and therefore you hope that he gets brutalized? > [@UltraVires](#): > > And it is why he got elected the first time. The left will never stop creating new reasons to be offended by something. The Left: Offended by systemic racism and violence against black men. The Right: Offended by one football player quietly kneeling during the National Anthem. The Left: Offended by symbology which may indicate sympathy with historical racist practices. The Right: Offended because they can’t buy sneakers with a particular flag design. Remind me again who’s creating new reasons to be offended by trivial shit? ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/117 "2019-07-04T15:09:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > From one Doper to another, your smartest move is to not let yourself be Nike’s tool. How does Nike benefit from people wearing flag patches? AFAIK, they don’t sell them. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/118 "2019-07-04T15:35:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And so the corporate manipulation is complete: to get back at Kaepernick (who is wholly indifferent to > you and what you do) now you’re going to spend money on a flag you didn’t even really care about until this week. Apparently you have me confused with some other motherfucker. I supported Kapernick’s protests (I don’t care if he noticed) until he came up with this horseshit, and I’ve cared about that flag for longer than I knew who he was. You don’t have to be a right-winger, have a hard on for Kapernick, or be easily manipulated to disagree with his and Nike’s position. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/119 "2019-07-04T15:41:19Z")
Nike didn’t want to offend anyone whose family from previous generations were slaves, so they decided not to put a shoe on the market. Big fuckin deal, it’s their company. The only outrage here is from unhinged “patriots” like the Governor of Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/120 "2019-07-04T15:53:54Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Apparently you have me confused with some other motherfucker. I supported Kapernick’s protests (I don’t care if he noticed) until he came up with this horseshit, and I’ve cared about that flag for longer than I knew who he was. You don’t have to be a right-winger, have a hard on for Kapernick, or be easily manipulated to disagree with his and Nike’s position. No, but I’m saying that buying a flag and putting it on your jacket _specifically because of Nike’s decision_ makes you look exactly like that. Just a heads up, if that’s not the look you’re going for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376.md?page=7)