# Is the "Betsy Ross" flag racist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376 "2019-07-02T01:59:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/141 "2019-07-04T21:18:33Z")
And in any case it’s not Nike’s job to be the ones who say “we’re reclaiming this symbol”, it’s the society’s, if it judges it worthwhile. If as a collective we care so little about historical americana that any motivated group can take it over for their own publicity, be it ideological or commercial, then why be upset when someone reacts accordingly? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/142 "2019-07-04T22:48:07Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I don’t think judging is the right attitude - I agree it’s important to understand that figures of the past were products of their environment and context ; and mostly did the best they could or what they thought was right (or most profitable to them personally, most often both) within that context. It doesn’t matter what you think about what they did : it was in the past (which is another country) and the wenches are \*all \*dead. > At the same time, it’s equally important not to whitewash or turn a blind eye to ideas, attitudes, opinions of the past \*because \*they were products of this selfsame context, or to absolve them of their sins entirely. Of course we shouldn’t whitewash them. We should acknowledge that they were products of their time, that they weren’t absolute heroes or evil tyrants. Neither their good deeds or bad ones should be erased. > [@](#): > > No, they probably couldn’t have known/done better and there’s no such thing as absolute or immanent morality. Yes, we’re standing on the shoulders of much larger giants than they were, with much bigger dicks. But that’s all the more reason for each new generation to re-examine the past based on their own, newfound understanding and evolving values in order to re-assess which ideas of theirs were good (if any) and which were just some bullshit ; and it’s all the more reason not to put these people on sacrosanct pedestals wot ought never ever to be toppled. You can put up statues and monuments, but at the same time, still teach people that they were humans, not gods. Fortunately, that was beginning to be the attitude when I was in school (80s-90s). There’s a happy medium, basically. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/143 "2019-07-05T02:08:16Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you really think there is a strong market for “overpriced” sneakers that display an outdated flag? > … > Do you disagree with this? Consider this is why the Betsy Ross flag is not exactly a ubiquitous marketing gimmick, even for Independence Day. People seem to love overpriced sneakers. So, yes, there is a large market for them, as Nike tested and that’s why they came up with the idea until they wimped out. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/144 "2019-07-05T02:33:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, yes, there is a large market for them, as Nike tested and that’s why they came up with the idea until they wimped out. It has yet to be demonstrated, as **you with the face** suggested, that this outcome wasn’t Nike’s strategy all along, as in the following scenario: 1. Get Kaepernick’s unenthusiastic take on the “Betsy Ross flag” sneakers, but don’t talk about it. 2. Commence manufacturing and distributing “Betsy Ross flag” sneakers. 3. Ostentatiously announce that they’re discontinuing this particular version of the sneaker design because the symbol has some unpleasant associations that could harsh the patriotism buzz by unintentionally (!) offending people. 4. Watch the controversy blow up as furious self-proclaimed “anti-PC” types lose their shit at Nike for “denigrating our country’s history” and similar melodramatically exaggerated takes on Nike’s position, thus reinforcing the impression that Nike’s getting trashed for taking a principled anti-racism stand and providing huge amounts of free publicity that boosts their image with their customer base. 5. Profit! 6. Bonus free publicity from [resellers getting up to thousands of dollars for now-rare pairs of “Betsy Ross flag” sneakers.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nike-betsy-ross-flag-sneakers-selling-for-more-than-2000-on-stockx/) “Wimped out” like a fox. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/145 "2019-07-05T03:33:03Z")
The Betsy Ross flag was prominently displayed at Barack Obama’s inauguration. [https://ijr.com/old-photos-obamas-inauguration-nike-shoe-ban/](https://ijr.com/old-photos-obamas-inauguration-nike-shoe-ban/) So he is a cryptoracist as well as a cryptomuslim. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/146 "2019-07-05T03:52:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The Betsy Ross flag was prominently displayed at Barack Obama’s inauguration. :dubious: Um, along with three or four other historical US flags from different eras. Kinda puts a different spin on it. And remember, for the people who apparently didn’t get this the first eight or nine times it was pointed out: AFAICT, neither Nike nor Kaepernick nor anybody else is saying anything about whether or how **anybody else** should display the “Betsy Ross flag” or how such displays should be interpreted. Nike simply decided against **their own** planned use of the symbol in a particular sneaker design. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/147 "2019-07-05T05:08:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Also, fuck your use of “politically correct” there, on multiple levels. Dial it back. if you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/148 "2019-07-05T09:50:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How does blocking the sale of a shoe with a Flag that celebrates America’s Independence “oppose brutality against black men”? 1. Kaepernick didn’t “block the sale” of the shoe; he just suggested to Nike that the symbol had historical racist connotations and Nike decided to withdraw the shoe. 2. Kaepernick was deemed specifically worthy of a cleated groin kick for being a “rebel rouser” [sic]. Remember why he has his current position of prominence in the first place? But perhaps you already knew both of those things when you carefully crafted your question. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/149 "2019-07-05T11:13:07Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It has yet to be demonstrated, as **you with the face** suggested, that this outcome wasn’t Nike’s strategy all along, as in the following scenario: > > 1. Get Kaepernick’s unenthusiastic take on the “Betsy Ross flag” sneakers, but don’t talk about it. > > 2. Commence manufacturing and distributing “Betsy Ross flag” sneakers. > > 3. Ostentatiously announce that they’re discontinuing this particular version of the sneaker design because the symbol has some unpleasant associations that could harsh the patriotism buzz by unintentionally (!) offending people. And do this literally days before the shoes were supposed to come out. Another telling clue is that Nike presents itself as if it’s totally Kaepernick’s bitch. It’s like they want us to believe he has veto power over every executive who signed off on this shoe. Millions of dollars down the toilet, but hey, Colin said it’s racist so we gotta do this, right? The company has no reason to present itself as a entity without any agency or spine, unless doing so supports the narrative that it wants to sell. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/150 "2019-07-05T14:51:11Z")
Old Kap wasn’t in the news for a while…hence the non story. ---
**Author:** ![Haldurson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/51bf81/32.png) [@Haldurson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haldurson)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/151 "2019-07-05T15:41:34Z")
If it evokes negative feelings in you, that’s valid. The FEELINGS might be valid. But sometimes having bad feelings is not enough to say that something is racist. I’m Jewish and I got really bad feelings when I heard a german dog owner talking about eugenics in dog breeding, and how, as a dog breeder, they wanted to kill the runt of the litter (our youngest dog at the time happened to be the runt, daughter of our other dog so, it did go beyond that). But that doesn’t mean he was antisemitic. So my point is that the guy was perfectly justified in stating his feelings. But is the symbol itself racist? I’m not so sure about that. At least it isn’t yet. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/152 "2019-07-05T19:01:34Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > 1. Kaepernick didn’t “block the sale” of the shoe; he just suggested to Nike that the symbol had historical racist connotations and Nike decided to withdraw the shoe. > … \*You \*were the one who claimed it was part of his campaign to “oppose brutality against black men”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/153 "2019-07-05T19:02:07Z")
[nm] ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/154 "2019-07-06T01:52:13Z")
oops > "Arizona Governor Doug Ducey says, after Nike’s decision to pull “Betsy Ross flag” sneakers that he is pulling incentives for company to have a plant there. Two days later, shows up to 4th of July party with Nikes on his feet! " ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/155 "2019-07-06T03:43:15Z")
> [@Haldurson](#): > > But is the symbol itself racist? I’m not so sure about that. At least it isn’t yet. No symbol has meaning in itself. In a lab, a biohazard sign means that something very serious is being stored or used in that area; in a college dorm room, the exact same sign means nothing more than that a nineteen-year-old got their hands on a cool-looking memento. Context is absolutely _everything_ when it comes to decoding symbols, as all tee-totaling Dopers should know very well. The Betsy Ross flag, therefore, _can_ mean vile things if it’s used in a Neo-Nazi parade. It _can_ mean benign things if it’s used in a museum or in a Fourth of July parade. You can no more understand it without context than you can understand a scream without context: Dark alley? Living room during an intense game? Labor and delivery ward? Fundamentally the same noise, fundamentally different likely meanings. But the question is this: With _minimal_ context, what is it taken to mean? If someone has it on their clothing and you know practically nothing else about them, what do you think about it and them? With some flags, like the Nazi flag, that’s obviously a very bad thing; at best, a low form of attention-seeking. With other flags, like the current American flag, it’s neutral to positive. With the Betsy Ross flag… it’s uncertain enough Nike doesn’t want to be associated with it. And here’s the nub: The Betsy Ross flag just isn’t used much these days, so any negative use taints it effectively. A bunch of racists couldn’t claim the current American flag any more than a bunch of Jains could claim the Nazi flag in the Western world, because both of those symbols have enough usage behind them, past and present, than their current meaning is fixed without a lot of surrounding context. But if a few assholes take the Betsy Ross flag they can make it dirty enough that Nike doesn’t want it. Maybe a larger grassroots effort could clean it. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/156 "2019-07-06T04:27:25Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > oops > > [https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/1147127081421160448](https://twitter.com/darrenrovell/status/1147127081421160448) > > "Arizona Governor Doug Ducey says, after Nike’s decision to pull “Betsy Ross flag” sneakers that he is pulling incentives for company to have a plant there. Two days later, shows up to 4th of July party with Nikes on his feet! " Bwahahaha! That’s hilarious. His reaction was certainly inappropriate. There’s a big difference between saying “You’re wrong” and saying “I’m gonna punish you because you’re wrong!” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/157 "2019-07-06T04:41:56Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Right now I’m standing on Barbara Streisands lawn waving a Betsy Ross flag and making an OK symbol Careful, she’s the stepmom of Thanos. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/158 "2019-07-07T23:56:55Z")
Deciding whether a corporate marketing strategy, or the opinion of a professional athlete is a more reliable guide for your ethics is an example of the near vacuum which passes for intellectual discourse in America today. Tris * * * It’s taking a lot longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/159 "2019-07-08T10:33:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > \*You \*were the one who claimed it was part of his campaign to “oppose brutality against black men”. I claimed his reputation for being a “rebel rouser” was due to his campaign to “oppose brutality against black men”. Which is true. But if you’d think arguing the position that Kaepernick ought to be brutalized merely for making a suggestion about a shoe design rather than for his advocacy of police reform is somehow better, please proceed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376/160 "2019-07-08T16:01:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I claimed his reputation for being a “rebel rouser” was due to his campaign to “oppose brutality against black men”. Which is true. > > But if you’d think arguing the position that Kaepernick ought to be brutalized merely for making a suggestion about a shoe design rather than for his advocacy of police reform is somehow better, please proceed. His his reputation for being a “rebel rouser” was due to his campaign to promote himself. Who the FUCK is suggesting that a second rate football player be "brutalized "? (except as allowed by the rules of football, during a game) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-betsy-ross-flag-racist/836376.md?page=9)