“We”? Obviously, you disagree with him, as do other posters in this thread. So by what mechanism does Kap’s opinion prevent you from doing what you want with the flag?
And do you even do anything with the flag now?
Before this thread, I didn’t even know this flag was a thing.
The Betsy Ross flag was everywhere back in 1975-1976 in the run up to the bicentennial.
I have rarely seen it since then.
I’ve been someone who has defended Colin Kaepernick and others who’ve taken a knee in protest of police brutality, but this controversy over the original flag is just utterly friggin dumb. Even if a few fringe groups who nobody’s heard of adopt it as their symbol, it’s not commonly understood in that sense.
I will also say that the story itself sounds like a marketing stunt pulled by Nike to generate buzz. Prior to this thread, whom among us was even aware that Nike was planning on releasing a new shoe to commemorate the holiday? Now, not only are we aware of it, but some of us are acting as if critical hopes and dreams have been snatched away with their decision not to do a Betsy Ross shoe.
The people getting mad about this are not Nike’s customer base. I’m gonna make a humongous WAG and say their base tracks very closely with fans of Kaepernick. Which kind of makes sense, you know, since the company made the business decision to sponsor the guy. You don’t do that if his fans are irrelevant to your bottom line.
Nike has been in the game a long ass time, so I’m pretty certain the marketing team is reading threads like one and chuckling their heads off. The outrage from stuffy white people is exactly the response they want because it rallies the Kaepernick fans to stand behind both their guy and Nike.
I took down my Gadsden flag after watching it displayed at so many Tea Party demonstrations. I don’t associate the Betsy Ross flag with white nationalist but it looks like some people do. If I had a Betsy Ross flag on display I’d probably consider taking it down just like I did my Gadsden flag.
This really isn’t hard to imagine, we already have a recent example of another flag from that era largely being abandoned to a distasteful fringe group:
It’s his influence on the opinions of others that will be the mechanism. Me? I already do what I want with most images. Someone who tries to censure me for an image is probably in for a frustrating, unfulfilling afternoon. It’d be nice if I didn’t have extra opportunities to have a truly stupid conversation over another flag that had been co-opted by idiots.
You can send them to me and I will properly dispose of them for you.
Okay, but you haven’t convinced me this is a problem. If someone who doesn’t even display this flag now chooses not to do so, so what? It’s really inconsequential.
So the “we” you were talking about earlier, doesn’t exist. Some may agree with Kaepernick, some may disagree with him. Same as it ever was.
The marketplace of ideas determines societal norms, not just one opinionated athlete.
You never answered my question. Do you display the Betsy Ross flag now? Or is all this happening in the land of the hypothetical?
I agree.
The problem seems to be that there are groups of people who seem to have the attitude that if a past era had some issue, be it slavery, racism, cruelty, etc… that those things somehow negate ALL achievements and things to commemorate about that era or person.
Which is absolute, unmitigated bullshit. Take, for example the case of Sidney Lanier. Reknowned poet, musician and author. Also a Confederate draftee when he was 19. Not a Confederate romanticizer or apologist either. And yet, despite all that, the Houston school district decided to rename the school that had been named for him.
This Betsy Ross thing is more of the same- it’s the nation’s first flag. If some asshole white supremacists are using it, then fuck THOSE people. And Kaepernick needs to get a grip- his statements are about as stupid as protesting the use of any Southern state flag extant prior to 1861 without any obvious Confederate imagery, just because those states/flags were once Confederate.
Not much, which is why it doesn’t seem at all “extreme” to me. Saying “we’re choosing not to use this symbol because we think it could unintentionally offend some people” is an extremely mild opinion that, as you note, could be applied to almost any symbol depending on the circumstances. So where are all the charges of “extremism” coming from?
Um, what Nike appears to be saying is that unintentionally offending some people who don’t like some aspects of the flag’s symbolism could detract from the nation’s patriotic holiday. They prefer not to risk causing any such offense. Again, this seems to me an extremely unimportant issue and in no way worthy of the aggression it seems to be provoking.
There’s no “ceding” or labeling involved, AFAICT. Nike is just stating the obvious fact that the “Betsy Ross” flag is somewhat controversial in some ways because of some associations with racism—and again, Nike didn’t just make that claim up, as the previous cites I posted from months and years ago demonstrate.
And Nike is declaring their own personal decision not to associate that symbol with their products. They are not saying jack-shit about what anybody else can or should do regarding the use of the symbol.
It’s not about “giving” racist shitheads anything. You can’t expect people to pretend that racist connotations that are already widely recognized simply don’t exist, just because you don’t want the Betsy Ross flag to have any associations with racism.
Like I said, reasonable people can disagree about how salient the racist connotations of the Betsy Ross flag really are. But declaring, in effect, “We’re going to ignore, deny and minimize any such connotations in order to preserve the ideological wholesomeness of this flag design as a national symbol” is mere wishful thinking. Our perception of symbols and their associations can change and diversify, over time and depending on circumstances. You can’t expect any particular symbol to remain perpetually immune to that evolutionary process just because it’s The Flag.
Who, exactly, is saying that? This appears to be just one more of the exaggerated interpretations that people are reaching for in order to validate their (still inexplicable to me) indignation about Nike’s unremarkable individual decision not to use this symbol on their sneakers.
Now this absolutely makes sense to me. And if it’s true, I have to congratulate Nike on their ability to generate recreational outrage to their advantage, even among the supposedly rational and well-informed segment of the population that the membership of a forum like the SDMB to some extent self-selects for.
Especially when you consider that Nike is increasingly focusing on growing sales in international markets. International customers with Nike-sneaker-type spending money tend not to have any emotional attachment to the Betsy Ross flag as some kind of sacrosanct symbol, and they also tend to be more aware of the prevalence of anti-black racism in the US than many white Americans are.
There are probably few things more likely to build brand loyalty to Nike among anti-racist non-Americans than the narrative of Nike standing by its thoughtful decision to discontinue a somewhat racism-tainted US patriotic symbol in its sneaker design, and defend their much-maligned brand ambassador activist Colin Kaepernick. Even as infuriated white American conservatives are all over the internet sputtering about how Kaepernick is a “pathetic clown” who “needs to get kicked in the junk by an NFL kicker” and so on, just because he pointed out the undeniable fact that the US patriotic symbol in question is sometimes considered controversial due to some (albeit debatable) associations with racism. Well played, Nike.
Missed this enjoyable and unintentionally spot-on malapropism (I think). I’m guessing that you actually meant to say “rabble-rouser”, but Kaepernick’s (alleged) statement of a perfectly reasonable opinion sure seems to be rousing up a bunch of self-identified “Rebels” who are apt to get SUPER touchy about any suggestions that their beloved flags have racist associations.
The Nike person lurking in this thread just made a note to make “rebel rouser” a thing in their next ad campaign.
Nike can do as it likes (within reason). Kaepernick can object to whatever he dislikes.
The part of the story I don’t like is Kaepernick. He actively increased division in this country by his kneeling show. Did he speak out on the subject before? No. Did he provide context? Not right away, and when he did, it was rooted in the misperception that police act according to a person’s color, not a person’s actions. Kaepernick cited actions that were justified or untrue. He visited an East Bay school where students dropped to the ground, extended their hands, and hollered “Hands up don’t shoot!” This is part of the false narrative of Michael Brown’s tragic death which was part of the origin of BCM.
This shit is dividing the country for no good reason. Yes, there are issues that need attention, but there are no solutions being offered by him (and others) except what sounds to many as ‘Stop doing what you aren’t doing!’.
But the Betsy Ross flag is a point of discussion today because of Nike and Kaepernick.
Well, I hope they have the decency to offer UCBearcats royalties on it. 
And well said, in its entirety, by you.
Nike: Here’s our new shoe.
Colin K: Hey, you know some people might be uneasy or hurt by that flag you have on it.
Nike: Oh, we didn’t realize. Thanks for pointing it out. We’ll not sell it.
Big damn deal.
I’m not seeing that at all. What Kaepernick did was to adopt a posture* that traditionally symbolizes extreme respect or devotion, to highlight the tragedy of racial injustice in a nation that prides itself on the liberty and equality that the flag’s supposed to symbolize.
That seems to me like an extremely mild, considerate and touching way to make a public statement expressing distress at the persistence of American racism. Heck, it’s not even as “divisive” as Rosa Parks’ politely refusing to move to the back of the bus, which at the time was actually a violation of the law.
What “actively increased division in this country” in Kaepernick’s case was all the hyperbolic outrage and carrying on by the many oversensitive snowflakes who, for some reason, completely Lose. Their. Shit. at any suggestion, however mild and reasonable, that our feelings of national pride and patriotism don’t erase our national problems with racism or our responsibility to acknowledge and confront those problems.
I could not agree with you more. All the hysterical Kaepernick-haters are accomplishing exactly nothing by their frantic hostility and unwillingness to admit that we need to think harder about the persistence of racism, and that it’s legitimate to use public protest to make that point.
Yes, I know it doesn’t feel pleasant to be reminded that our society and our individual selves are in some ways, however unintentionally in some cases, complicit in longstanding and continuing injustice. But we’re not here on this earth solely to have pleasant feelings. The “white fragiles” who get so upset about Kaepernick need to get the hell over their hurt feelings and stop being so divisive in their refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of anti-racism protest.
*As is well known, Kaepernick initially chose to protest by simply remaining seated for the anthem, and was persuaded to switch to kneeling by a fellow player and military vet who convinced him that his protest message would be clearer by using the more traditionally respectful one-knee posture.
ETA: and thanks bobot!
ISTM that if the “Betsy Ross flag” were such an overt sign of racism, the folks designing the shoe at Nike would have picked up on that without having to be told about it by Kaepernick. They seem to be fairly current on social issues.
Except Colin K was completely and totally wrong. Ok, sure “some people might be uneasy or hurt by that flag …” but the same could be said of the current American flag, or the British flag or…
Kaepernick is an idiot for various issues. (His support of Nike, his refusal to vote (WTF?!), his praise of Castro, etc). But that’s not WHY I think this is wrong.
I don’t think we should let the racists win. Again, to paraphrase Office Space, “THEY’RE the ones who suck, why should WE change?” Seriously? Quit letting the racists win. Hell, it was a bunch of trolls at 4chan who caused the whole controversy over the OK sign! And people FELL for it.
Don’t let the assholes have the last word!
I see little overlap between Rosa Parks and Colin Kaepernick. Ms. Parks risked real penalties and was focused on one specific example of inequality to bring real injustice to light, Kaepernick is a millionaire who had little at stake and had a message so muddled that it was essentially lost. (And recall Kaepernick was not cut by the 49ers, he chose to not use his extension- his job was not at risk).
You also cannot dismiss real concerns and issues that may provoke outrage by claiming "white fragility’ and calling people ‘haters’.
The kneeling got him attention when the sitting was not noticed. I do not see how it made his message more clear.