# Is the Bible pretty much fatally flawed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852 "2009-04-03T13:54:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/21 "2009-04-03T16:37:34Z")
This is a good argument used by Catholic apologists. Since the Bible is so contradictory you need one infallible authority to proclaim what it all means. If you don’t have that authority all you will get is hundreds of splinter groups that believe theirs is the one true interpretation. Which is exactly what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/22 "2009-04-03T16:48:03Z")
There are translations that explain context and deal with what is fable/parable/copyist addition etc. One such Bible is the Nicholas King translation, which as well as attempting to keep the original idiosyncrasies and style of the original New Testament authors (as it reads in Greek) he adds backgrounds and interesting side thoughts about the context and purpose of each section. Last I heard he was working on the Old Testament, but I imagine that would be a mammoth task of epic proportions, since he does not translate one word exactly the same each time and adds italics, bolding, quotation marks, and different formatting to emphasize sections that the original is emphasizing. Might have already done it, I’d have to check. I don’t know what you mean by ‘giving prophecies that are clear and concise’. Translators cannot read the minds of the authors and can only be as clear as they were. If the original is unclear a jumbled, then that is what the translators should show us. Anything less is betraying the translation. This goes for any work, not just the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/23 "2009-04-03T17:01:57Z")
Its not the book that that is fatally flawed - although it certainly contains flaws of many different types, instead it is the ‘importance’ that is placed upon said book that is fatally flawed. The belief that it is ‘more’ than just a book is where the flaw, and the arguments over translation/interpetation arise. While we may argue over the meaning behind other pieces of literature (Balrogs, Wings?) , when one argues over a meaning in the “bible”, it takes on a whole new scope. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/24 "2009-04-03T17:07:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Bible is the Word of God, who IS God. How can you expect man to understand God on his own? Man is not capable of understanding God unless God allows and teaches man. > > That path is available to man, God’s word points out how to do it. ‘Seek the Lord with all your heart’ and ‘lean not on your own understanding’. But few take these instructions and then don’t understand the truth of the Word. > > In man’s understanding the Word of God can not make sense and would appear flawed. But follow God’s instructions and you will see that the Word it absolutely true and man’s understanding of the world is fatally flawed. [“I have a hunch that if we checked we’d find this is Karl’s handwriting.”](http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Lanzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Lanzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lanzy)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/25 "2009-04-03T17:14:50Z")
If the Bible itself, on its own convinces you the earth is less than 6000 years old, then Yes it is fatally flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/26 "2009-04-03T18:21:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Bible is the Word of God… So you say. I say the Bible is the Word of the Devil. And what I believe is true and cannot be questioned, just like your beliefs. Prove me wrong _without using self-referential quotes from the same document_. Regardless of whose Word it is or isn’t, **Czarcasm** is suggesting someone make a decision about each component part and that becomes gospel. So to speak. Won’t happen, because of so many opposing and strongly believed interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/27 "2009-04-03T18:59:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I believe about the 5000 yrs, possibly a lot younger Proof that the bible is fatally flawed. It makes people believe abject stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/28 "2009-04-03T19:16:23Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Bible is the Word of God, who IS God. How can you expect man to understand God on his own? Man is not capable of understanding God unless God allows and teaches man. Kanicbird, please show proof of the existence of a god of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/29 "2009-04-03T19:19:56Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Proof that the bible is fatally flawed. It makes people believe abject stupidity. Remember, correlation is not causation. It may be that it simply appeals to the sort of idiots who take this type of thing literally. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/30 "2009-04-03T19:50:53Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Really? How about this then, just as an exercise… > > Jesus was predestined to die. It was his purpose. Judas then, was predestined to be the betrayer. That was his purpose. So, if he was born to play a predetermined role, and was cursed/damned/“not a very nice person” for it, how would this square with justice, mercy, free will, and all that other inconvenient stuff? He was doing what he was supposed to do. If he hadn’t, there would be no crucifixion/resurrection/christianity. Judas was a devil/demon according to scriptures, and so a fallen angel, and would have entered the kingdom of death at the time of his fall. As a devil/demon, at that point, would have already been locked in to do the things demons do. IMHO By Jesus breaking His body with Judas, the redemption of fallen angels was now also a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/31 "2009-04-03T19:53:38Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Kanicbird, please show proof of the existence of a god of any kind. Look outside your window. All creation testifies to the existence of God. BTW men are ‘gods’ also. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/32 "2009-04-03T19:55:00Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So you say. I say the Bible is the Word of the Devil. And what I believe is true and cannot be questioned, just like your beliefs. Prove me wrong _without using self-referential quotes from the same document_. > > Regardless of whose Word it is or isn’t, **Czarcasm** is suggesting someone make a decision about each component part and that becomes gospel. So to speak. Won’t happen, because of so many opposing and strongly believed interpretations. It’s not for me to prove to you, it’s up to God, and He is willing if you are willing to let Him. You want proof, follow His instruction. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/33 "2009-04-03T19:57:44Z")
> [@Lanzy](#): > > If the Bible itself, on its own convinces you the earth is less than 6000 years old, then Yes it is fatally flawed. Well sort of, it takes the Word of God, who is God and is revealed through the scriptures (Bible) that will reveal all truths. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/34 "2009-04-03T19:59:28Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > [QUOTE=Lobohan] > Proof that the bible is fatally flawed. It makes people believe abject stupidity. Remember, correlation is not causation. [/QUOTE] Oh, please. Without the Bible, people wouldn’t believe in that stupid stuff _because it wouldn’t exist_. You are just using the standard apology for anything religious by claiming that it has no effect on people and that whatever happens is the people’s fault - as long as what is happening is stupid or evil. If someone does something GOOD because of a Biblical passage, suddenly the Bible’s a source of inspiration. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/35 "2009-04-03T20:16:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Judas was a devil/demon according to scriptures, and so a fallen angel, and would have entered the kingdom of death at the time of his fall. As a devil/demon, at that point, would have already been locked in to do the things demons do. > > IMHO By Jesus breaking His body with Judas, the redemption of fallen angels was now also a possibility. Show me. I want a cite, chapter and verse. I want you to point me exactly to that passage. Then I will go look it up. Judas was a man. Nothing more, nothing less. maybe he was meant to do what he did. Maybe he was trying to bring the more traditional (for his time) idea of a military or earthly Messiah. When he realized that Jesus WAS going to die, what did he do? He took the thirty pieces of silver back and threw it at the “big shots”. He felt remorse. A demon would feel no remorse. Cite. I want the exact chapter and verse where you got this idea. Because it’s not there. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/36 "2009-04-03T20:22:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. Without the Bible, people wouldn’t believe in that stupid stuff _because it wouldn’t exist_. You are just using the standard apology for anything religious by claiming that it has no effect on people and that whatever happens is the people’s fault - as long as what is happening is stupid or evil. If someone does something GOOD because of a Biblical passage, suddenly the Bible’s a source of inspiration. Did you fail reading comprehension or do you just lack a sense of humor? I wasn’t apologizing for anyone, and certainly not Fundamentalist Christians who hold beliefs that are in direct opposition to all measured data and strongly tested theories about the natural world. Go take a piss on someone else. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/37 "2009-04-03T20:35:44Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Show me. I want a cite, chapter and verse. I want you to point me exactly to that passage. Then I will go look it up. > > Judas was a man. Nothing more, nothing less. maybe he was meant to do what he did. Maybe he was trying to bring the more traditional (for his time) idea of a military or earthly Messiah. When he realized that Jesus WAS going to die, what did he do? He took the thirty pieces of silver back and threw it at the “big shots”. He felt remorse. A demon would feel no remorse. > > Cite. I want the exact chapter and verse where you got this idea. Because it’s not there. Judas was a devil: [QUOTE=John 6:70] Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” [/QUOTE] And there are many devils out there today as well. It was not remorse, but fear of being the demon who brought down Satan’s Kingdom. Wouldn’t you try to undo that before returning to Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/38 "2009-04-03T20:38:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It’s not for me to prove to you, it’s up to God, and He is willing if you are willing to let Him. You want proof, follow His instruction. I did. He told me, in a dream, that you were wrong and I am right. Really. He also said he left some typos in Genesis, and those stupid priests didn’t catch it! He likes to listen to Black Sabbath and the Grateful Dead and drink beer on Saturday nights. He’s a pretty cool dude. I like Him better than your version. Are you willing to let Him come into your world? He will if you want to. You gotta try really bad. It takes faith. Just believe in Him and he will set you free. Look outside your window and you’ll see His creation – mountains, rivers, Fords, Chevys and Toyotas. Wondrous, ain’t it? I’m following His instructions right now and it’s pretty awesome. I think I’ll found a new church because God said all the others are false faiths and if we don’t do something soon, He’s gonna get all Saddam & Godiva on us again and we’ll be sorry, but the price of salt will come down. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/39 "2009-04-03T20:47:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Look outside your window. All creation testifies to the existence of God. No, it doesn’t. In fact, if you look _closely_ at it, it testifies to the truth of evolution and a billions-of-years-old earth and numerous other things you disbelieve. Contrary to popular delusion, all that science _is_ is looking outside the window and studying what the world is testifying about. > [@kanicbird](#): > > BTW men are ‘gods’ also. :dubious: Explain. (Or are you just hoping to get crucified by a wandering pharisee?) > [@kanicbird](#): > > It’s not for me to prove to you, it’s up to God, and He is willing if you are willing to let Him. You want proof, follow His instruction. Of course you realize that if you use obedience as a measure of whether you should believe something, and that includes obedience to the order to believe utterly, then you will end up obediently believing _anything_. God, Satan, the voices in your head, all are equally supported and “proven” by this approach. Oh, wait, you _don’t_ realize this. Because if you allowed yourself to, you’d realize that your beliefs are _demonstrably_ no more supported than a satanist’s are. Oh, and Jesus meant that _Peter_ was a devil, not Judas. What, you disagree? Prove it. Regarding the flawed nature of the bible, it’s pretty flawed by _any_ measure - if you take the whole book. In individual parts it’s half-decent poetry, fiction, or in sparing places history. As a whole…well, it’s unsurprising that a collection of disparate works by authors widely spaced in time would lack a cohesive narrative. And for a source of truth or accuracy…or even guidance or morality…you’d be better off with Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/40 "2009-04-03T20:50:12Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Did you fail reading comprehension or do you just lack a sense of humor? I wasn’t apologizing for anyone, and certainly not Fundamentalist Christians who hold beliefs that are in direct opposition to all measured data and strongly tested theories about the natural world. You may not have meant to, but that’s what you did. And if you were being humorous, it’s easy enough to mistake a humorous comment for a serious one when people say the same thing dead seriously all the time. Unless you use a smiley, expect to be taken seriously in such cases; it’s not like I can hear your tone of voice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852.md?page=3)