# Is the Bible pretty much fatally flawed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852 "2009-04-03T13:54:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/61 "2009-04-04T00:11:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I have no desire to boast about my multiple degrees in the sciences, but I would only say that they would easily surpass most of the posters here by quite a bit. I do count them all rubbish however, as man’s view of the world is so totally in error there is no hope for man outside of the grace God offers us through His Son Jesus. In Him alone will I boast. So…massive cognitive dissonance, then? You _know_ that science is nothing more than the effort to accurately describe reality. You _know_ that is has systems in place that make the possibility of widespread error on points like the age of the earth or evolution ridiculously unlikely at this point. You _know_ that if reality is even _remotely_ close to real, that the bible _isn’t_ remotely close to accurate in its descriptions of reality. You even know that personal subjective experiences are utterly untrustworthy as evidence, and that only a complete moron would trust a book - or spirit - that said “I’m God/God-sent. Trust me!” Frankly, nah. If you _had_ such awareness and knowledge, you have expunged it to make room for your irrational and unsubstantiated theories. You are thus absolutely correct that any science degrees you have are now rubbish, becuase you no longer have the knowledge and abilities that they state you possess. You can now boast only in your own ego, and your own imaginings. > [@kanicbird](#): > > While that is impossible with man, nothing is impossible for God. The Word is God. One day every knee will bow and every tongue proclaim that Jesus is Lord, so you will get your objectiveness. Until then God wants you to know Him personally, as such He does not want you to come to Him objectively, but personally. After god has come out and slaughtered all those who will not bow their knee and proclaim his soverignty, then sure, there will be objective evidence and reason for rational people to believe in him. Until then, it is impossible to come to know him. You can come to know the inside of your own imagination…but without outside evidence, there is no way whatsoever to discern the voice of God (should it exist) from the voice of the Devil (should it exist) or from the voice of your own overactive imagination (which we _know_ exists) And more to the point, you _still_ can’t verify that the text of the bible has any supernatural origins whatsoever, especially not by references to its own text. You cannot verify its godliness objectively _or_ personally - because ‘personal’ verifications are more likely your subconscious telling you what you want to hear than some homonculous doing the same. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Outside of God man does not know what truth is, hint objectively verifiable means nothing. Do you know your parents objectively or personally? Your first sentence is nonsense - I know what truth is; I can look it up in the dictionary and everything. You might try that sometime. I know my parents from objective evidence. Every interaction I have had with them was theoriecally observable by third parties (and often were actually _observed_ by third parties). My parents have never interacted with me via ‘personal’ evidentiary methods like sending me emotions, visions, dreams, or hallucinations. > [@kanicbird](#): > > Again you know not the power nor the truth of God, the gifts of discernment He offers. You sound as foolish and ignorant in your posting and I sound to you, though I am schooled in your reality and know it is a deception. Oh, I know I sound like a fool to you; most people sound like fools to holocaust deniers on that subect too. The thing is, of course, that I have facts and reality backing me up, and you have…selected quotes from an old book of doubtful veracity. > [@kanicbird](#): > > You have no idea of what you speak or to put it in the Word of God: You mean, to put in the words of that book that you cannot possibly know is the Word of God, of course. And nobody’s saying that the bible isn’t saying it’s true. We’re just quite reasonably doubting its credibility. Which is pretty shaky, what with the contradictions with observable reality, and the internal contadictions, and all that. > [@kanicbird](#): > > I can tell you that God is so real and right infront of you at all times, but you are blinded to Him as He states: > > May God open your eyes and ears. Mm-hmm. I have an invisible dragon in my [nonexistent] garage too. We’re both special! In the astronomically unlikely event there’s this invisible dude standing in front of me at all times (even when I’m showering? Ewwwww), then I sincerely hope if he _does_ one day make himself visible to me, he makes himself visible to everyone else too. Because if it’s just me, I’ll **know** I’ve gone insane. It’s a sure sign, you see. And dang, if he was visible and in front of me at all times, it’d make driving really unsafe. I couldn’t see where I was going! ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/62 "2009-04-04T00:59:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I have no desire to boast about my multiple degrees in the sciences, but I would only say that they would easily surpass most of the posters here by quite a bit. Yeah right. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/63 "2009-04-04T02:58:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Whenever a question arises as to what the Bible teaches, nothing ever seems to be set in stone. There is debate as to what is parable and what is fact, what words really mean, and lets not _even_ get into the Book of Revelations. As it now stands, you can pretty much justify any position using the Bible, making it useless as a source of authority. > > How did Judas die? > How old is the Earth? > What is meant by “Thou shalt not kill”? > And many more. > > Would it be possible to write a clarified version that labeled parables, stories and facts, that defined or updated words so that we actually understood what was being said, that gave prophesies that were clear and concise and without multiple interpretations? I don’t think the Bible is flawed if you see it for what it is. A book written by ancient men. The story of Jesus is interesting in it’s philosophy just as other similar stories from other religions. I think it fails as a source of authority. Regardless of how little or how much authority people imagine the Bible has ultimately they must choose a course and take responsibility for those choices and face the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/64 "2009-04-04T03:00:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I have no desire to boast about my multiple degrees in the sciences, but I would only say that they would easily surpass most of the posters here by quite a bit. I do count them all rubbish however, as man’s view of the world is so totally in error there is no hope for man outside of the grace God offers us through His Son Jesus. In Him alone will I boast. I’m curious about where these degrees came from but ultimately it doesn’t matter. With the most prestigious degree on your wall from the most prestigious school you’d still be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/65 "2009-04-04T03:26:03Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > And **kanicbird** drives another thread right into the ground, using nothing more than his boundless skill at mistaking belief for fact. Actually, his posts are perfect examples of what I put forth in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/66 "2009-04-04T03:45:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Bible is the Word of God, who IS God. How can you expect man to understand God on his own? Man is not capable of understanding God unless God allows and teaches man. Even if we accept that may be true, the obvious fact remains that many people who do see the Bible as the word of God and are equally certain the Holy Spirit has enlightened them to see the truth. can’t agree with each other on the details. I think that says something about the nature of inspiration and of the Holy Spirit even if we allow it’s real. I’m not sure where man’s desperate need to know for sure came from but I think an honest answer is, we just don’t know with the certainty folks claim. > [@](#): > > That path is available to man, God’s word points out how to do it. ‘Seek the Lord with all your heart’ and ‘lean not on your own understanding’. But few take these instructions and then don’t understand the truth of the Word. and as I just noted, even the ones that do think so can’t agree on what the Holy Spirit taught them. Here’s the kicker for me. There’s nothing in the Bible itself that claims the things about it that fundamentalist Christians do. There are no passages or prophecies indicating it was ever God’s plan to have one authoritative compilation of books as a guide to living and salvation. All the available evidence points to a different conclusion. Why wouldn’t we expect a God who moved people to write down their best understanding of his will to move people throughout out the ages and on every continent where men sought to unravel life’s mysteries? There is Biblical support for that idea. One final authoritative compilation of scripture? Not so much. > [@](#): > > In man’s understanding the Word of God can not make sense and would appear flawed. But follow God’s instructions and you will see that the Word it absolutely true and man’s understanding of the world is fatally flawed. Interesting way of putting it. Since we know that people who believe the Bible is the word of God and the Holy Spirit guides them in understanding it, still can’t agree with each other, I’d say flaw is correct term. If Truth matters, and actually has a chance of setting us free the evidence ought to matter more than the traditions or religious dogma passed on by men that really don’t hold up to scrutiny and basic reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/67 "2009-04-04T04:06:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Look outside your window. All creation testifies to the existence of God. No, it only testifies to our existence. > [@kanicbird](#): > > It’s not for me to prove to you, it’s up to God, and He is willing if you are willing to let Him. You want proof, follow His instruction. Like he “proved” himself to you, right? Thats pretty subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/68 "2009-04-04T04:44:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I have no desire to boast about my multiple degrees in the sciences. I’m going to assume that these degrees are as made up as your scriptural ideas, Aslan. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/69 "2009-04-04T11:27:21Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I have no desire to boast about my multiple degrees in the sciences, but I would only say that they would easily surpass most of the posters here by quite a bit. I can only assume you’ve had a stroke since you acquired them. > [@](#): > > I do count them all rubbish however, as man’s view of the world is so totally in error there is no hope for man outside of the grace God offers us through His Son Jesus. In Him alone will I boast. So, you’re a man and thus, according to your own statement, your world view is totally in error. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/70 "2009-04-04T12:22:03Z")
God states ‘lean not on your own understanding’. God does not work how we would expect Him to, but He does work His way. And His way is far more proof then any proof man can come up with. I can not make you understand the scriptures, but I can tell you that you can not understand them the way you expect to - that can not work (so the answer to the OP is no, what you are asking for can not exist). I gave you some of what has been revealed to me, not so you take my word for it, but hopefully God will use that to open your mind to there are other ways of looking at reality, equally as valid, actually far more valid, then the reality you have been taught and are so sure your way is the only way. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/71 "2009-04-04T12:52:15Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God states ‘lean not on your own understanding’. God does not work how we would expect Him to, but He does work His way. And His way is far more proof then any proof man can come up with. I can not make you understand the scriptures, but I can tell you that you can not understand them the way you expect to - that can not work (so the answer to the OP is no, what you are asking for can not exist). > > I gave you some of what has been revealed to me, not so you take my word for it, but hopefully God will use that to open your mind to there are other ways of looking at reality, equally as valid, actually far more valid, then the reality you have been taught and are so sure your way is the only way. When the people who claim the Holy Spirit has revealed God’s Truth to them start presenting some kind of consistent message that show they value the truth over man’s religious tradition your words here will mean something. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/72 "2009-04-04T13:02:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > When the people who claim the Holy Spirit has revealed God’s Truth to them start presenting some kind of consistent message that show they value the truth over man’s religious tradition your words here will mean something. You have to forgive kanicbird and leave him to his own (what seems to be) delusions, for some reason he has to think and believe that he is the supreme translator of all scripture and he alone knows what God wants. His God is a different god then any other person has, so if he sees the moon is made of green cheese then it must be. If it helps him fine but I doubt that anyone else buys into his translations. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/73 "2009-04-04T13:08:33Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > When the people who claim the Holy Spirit has revealed God’s Truth to them start presenting some kind of consistent message that show they value the truth over man’s religious tradition your words here will mean something. Why would you think you would see a consistent message when God basically says you are not getting that till you follow my instructions? All you will get is the same apparent contradictions you see in the Bible. As the Word is God, Who is Jesus Christ, and the church (spirit filled believers) are the body of Christ - as such they are the same thing. Again you are trying to lean on your own understanding and ignore the instructions God set forth. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/74 "2009-04-04T13:12:18Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > I’m going to assume that these degrees are as made up as your scriptural ideas, Aslan. :eek: Take that back!!! Do NOT, in any way, shape, or form, associate the Great Lion–noble, wise, brave, compassionate, and ten thousand other good adjectives I won’t list here–with **kanicbird**. If **kanicbird** landed in Narnia’s world, he’d be turned into a dragon on, like, day 4. I’m not sure he’d ever turn back. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/75 "2009-04-04T13:16:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why would you think you would see a consistent message when God basically says you are not getting that till you follow my instructions? > > All you will get is the same apparent contradictions you see in the Bible. As the Word is God, Who is Jesus Christ, and the church (spirit filled believers) are the body of Christ - as such they are the same thing. Again you are trying to lean on your own understanding and ignore the instructions God set forth. If by “Word” you mean the Bible then telling us the “Word” will be unclear until we understand the “Word” is useless advice. If by the “Word” you mean some voice you hear in your head, well…let’s just say that we can’t hear what voices _you_ hear, and you have no way of knowing what voices _others_ hear. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/76 "2009-04-04T13:18:26Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > When the people who claim the Holy Spirit has revealed God’s Truth to them start presenting some kind of consistent message that show they value the truth over man’s religious tradition your words here will mean something. Another way of looking at this is once someone is born again, they learn as a child, till they are spiritually mature. Are you expecting a consistent message from a first grader, a sixth grader and a twelfth grader? Each learns what they need to in their stage of development. Is a first grader wrong because he does not know about taking a square root? By looking at this group from the outside you will see all people who claim to have the Holy Spirit, but only with the Holy Spirit’s revelation you will see that they are in different grades, different levels of development, and different disciplines. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/77 "2009-04-04T13:18:42Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > You have to forgive kanicbird and leave him to his own (what seems to be) delusions, for some reason he has to think and believe that he is the supreme translator of all scripture and he alone knows what God wants. His God is a different god then any other person has, so if he sees the moon is made of green cheese then it must be. If it helps him fine but I doubt that anyone else buys into his translations. Probably others wouldn’t agree on the details{part of my point actually} but there are still plenty of people who see the Bible as the authoritative Word of God, while dismissing other so called Holy writings. It bugs me that people who claim to value truth reject clear evidence and basic reasoning skills in order to elevate a religious tradition. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/78 "2009-04-04T13:20:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If by “Word” you mean the Bible then telling us the “Word” will be unclear until we understand the “Word” is useless advice. > If by the “Word” you mean some voice you hear in your head, well…let’s just say that we can’t hear what voices _you_ hear, and you have no way of knowing what voices _others_ hear. **Czarcasm** the Word is God. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/79 "2009-04-04T13:40:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Another way of looking at this is once someone is born again, they learn as a child, till they are spiritually mature. Are you expecting a consistent message from a first grader, a sixth grader and a twelfth grader? Each learns what they need to in their stage of development. Is a first grader wrong because he does not know about taking a square root? No I wouldn’t expect levels of insight and knowledge to be consistent in that kind of group. I would expect an adult on any spiritual level to admit they didn’t know rather than claim divinely inspired knowledge and be so inconsistent. I believe the Bible refers to that as humility. > [@](#): > > By looking at this group from the outside you will see all people who claim to have the Holy Spirit, but only with the Holy Spirit’s revelation you will see that they are in different grades, different levels of development, and different disciplines. I’m aware that people are individuals and grow differently. I expect them to be inconsistent. I also expect them to recognize their inconstancy and take that into account when they start claiming divine revelation showed them the truth. I’d expect there wouldn’t be inconsistency in the truth. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/80 "2009-04-04T14:02:41Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’d expect there wouldn’t be inconsistency in the truth. Well in the physical world we have inconsistencies also. Ask several people what color is the sky you may get: 1 - Blue 2 - Orange 3 - Black 4 - I don’t know 5 - It depends on time of day and atmospheric conditions To a objective observer they would seem inconsistent, but with revelation of who those people are you find: 1 - Is a person in elementary school 2 - is looking at the sky at sunset on a cloudy day 3 - is looking at the sky at night 4 - is a 1 yr old 5 - is a technically minded college student. And you can see how these inconsistencies are not as the appear, and all are true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852.md?page=5)