# Is the Bible pretty much fatally flawed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852 "2009-04-03T13:54:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/121 "2009-04-08T16:13:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No, it is fatally flawed because it is absolute truth, which is far above humans’ ability to understand, again needed God’s help. > > It is designed in part IMHO to have the very question the OP asked and others like it. \*\* If it is so fatally flawed why do so many people hold it so highly - with some of those people being very intelligent and insightful?\*\* Again not all people, but some, how can they regard this as so true and abandon what others hold so highly - that being worldly knowledge? You realize that the exact same claim can be made of the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, or the Vedas, or the Eddas, right? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/122 "2009-04-08T16:40:23Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You realize that the exact same claim can be made of the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, or the Vedas, or the Eddas, right? For all who seek God with all their heart, all paths eventually lead to God through Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/123 "2009-04-08T17:11:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No, it is fatally flawed because it is absolute truth, which is far above humans’ ability to understand, again needed God’s help. > > It is designed in part IMHO to have the very question the OP asked and others like it. If it is so fatally flawed why do so many people hold it so highly - with some of those people being very intelligent and insightful? Again not all people, but some, how can they regard this as so true and abandon what others hold so highly - that being worldly knowledge? Comon **KB**. You know the answer to that. It’s tradition and indoctrination. Most people including most Christians know very little about the Bible. They are taught to believe so they believe. That’s the same reason other religions and millions of people hold different holy books so highly. I hold the Bible is high esteem but it’s just a book. I believe people can and do have profound experiences studying the Bible or going to church. I think the mistake is they attach that experience to a specific book or a specific denomination . Whatever insight, inspiration, or revelation is, it springs from within. The Bible, the Koran, the Book of Morom, The Gita, or other revered “sacred” writings are food for thought but the true teacher, the true authority , is within. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/124 "2009-04-08T17:24:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Comon **KB**. You know the answer to that. It’s tradition and indoctrination. Most people including most Christians know very little about the Bible. They are taught to believe so they believe. That’s the same reason other religions and millions of people hold different holy books so highly. I don’t deny there is tradition and indoctrination, actually most people just settle there, which is only of man, not God. But there is a far higher level that is revealed, one that comes only from a relationship between God and that person, it does away with all traditions and shatters the bonds of indoctrination. This is why John wrote: [QUOTE=John 8:36] So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/125 "2009-04-08T22:42:43Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > For all who seek God with all their heart, all paths eventually lead to God through Jesus Christ. Yeah, all of them except the ones that don’t. Millions of .Muslims Hindus, Buddhists, pagans, et al, would disagree. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/126 "2009-04-08T23:15:43Z")
[QUOTE] > [@kanicbird](#): > > I don’t deny there is tradition and indoctrination, actually most people just settle there, which is only of man, not God. But there is a far higher level that is revealed, one that comes only from a relationship between God and that person, it does away with all traditions and shatters the bonds of indoctrination. It also shatters the need to hold the Bible as something it was never intended to be. If I have faith that the Holy Spirit will guide me into all truth then I can study the Bible as just a book and study other books as well, trusting the HS to help me discern the truth from man’s tradition. I won’t always be right because like other men, I have my own hurdles to overcome, but at least I’ve claimed responsibility for my own journey and my own relationship with God, and I’ve placed my trust in the right place. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/127 "2009-04-09T02:05:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > OK, that last post was helpful, yes I now agree the Bible is fatally flawed and it is done so by design, as we, as humans, can not understand it, trying to understand it in ourselves will lead to death. That is exactly what God wants, us to give up trying to make sense of something that is incomprehensible, and just come to God and say I can’t understand it, I need you. I humbly request that you quit posting in this thread if all you intend to do is make claims that pretty much force other posters to openly question your sanity. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/128 "2009-04-09T02:11:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I humbly request that you quit posting in this thread if all you intend to do is make claims that pretty much force other posters to openly question your sanity. > Thank you. Okay party pooper. Who’s going to provide the high quality gibberish now? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/129 "2009-04-09T03:23:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I humbly request that you quit posting in this thread if all you intend to do is make claims that pretty much force other posters to openly question your sanity. > Thank you. This WAS the guy who once told an atheist to pray to Jesus, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/130 "2009-04-09T03:33:06Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Okay party pooper. Who’s going to provide the high quality gibberish now? I wouldn’t call it gibberish. What he writes, certainly. I mean the guy is certifiable, but he is absolutely convinced that he is right. There is no grey in his world. When we argue with him we look like children in comparison. We seem all over the place in our arguments. All our arguments boil down to ‘we don’t know’ because there is no proof that there isn’t a god. How do you prove that something doesn’t exist that is equivalent to the MPU or the flying spaghetti monster? I imagine this absolute certainty is what appeals to the group of people who are devoutly religious. They don’t have to think about stuff. They know it is real because it says so in this book and others who have read the book are so certain it is true, then who am I to doubt? It doesn’t hurt this image in that he can post a link or two from the bible that supports, at least superficially, whatever claim he is making at the moment. That it is all built on a house of cards isn’t relevant. He is certain, he can drop bible references that support his view, and that appeals to a certain group of people. Maybe not here, but those, in their millions, who support those preachers in their crystal palaces, it probably does. Frankly, it scares the crap out of me that there are people who are so certain of things that are so obviously fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/131 "2009-04-09T04:03:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > This WAS the guy who once told an atheist to pray to Jesus, IIRC. And mind you, this wasn’t a case of trying to witness-this was simply someone who was just interested in going to church with a friend to see what it was all about-and he suggested writing a letter to Jesus. Uhhhh…hello, a little logic problem here. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/132 "2009-04-09T06:37:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I humbly request that you quit posting in this thread if all you intend to do is make claims that pretty much force other posters to openly question your sanity. > Thank you. And you waited until post #127 to say this? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/133 "2009-04-09T13:35:04Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I wouldn’t call it gibberish. What he writes, certainly. I mean the guy is certifiable, but he is absolutely convinced that he is right. There is no grey in his world. When we argue with him we look like children in comparison. We seem all over the place in our arguments. All our arguments boil down to ‘we don’t know’ because there is no proof that there isn’t a god. How do you prove that something doesn’t exist that is equivalent to the MPU or the flying spaghetti monster? > I imagine this absolute certainty is what appeals to the group of people who are devoutly religious. They don’t have to think about stuff. They know it is real because it says so in this book and others who have read the book are so certain it is true, then who am I to doubt? It doesn’t hurt this image in that he can post a link or two from the bible that supports, at least superficially, whatever claim he is making at the moment. That it is all built on a house of cards isn’t relevant. He is certain, he can drop bible references that support his view, and that appeals to a certain group of people. Maybe not here, but those, in their millions, who support those preachers in their crystal palaces, it probably does. > Frankly, it scares the crap out of me that there are people who are so certain of things that are so obviously fantasy. Um yeah, I officially apologize to **KB** A lot of his posts are not gibberish and we have some decent exchanges. I think if you follow his posts though you will see that he is all over place as well in the sense that because of circular logic he regularly contradicts himself IMO. When logic is getting close to finding a flaw there’s always “If you don’t have the spirit you can’t understand that apparent contradictions are not really contradictions.” No point in arguing with that. ---
**Author:** ![ch4rl3s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c4cdca/32.png) [@ch4rl3s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ch4rl3s)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/134 "2009-04-09T13:54:30Z")
Thanks for the clarification. [QUOTE=cosmosdan] If we believe the truth will set us free then a commitment to seeking and embracing the truth is in order. We have to place the truth over man’s tradition and the opinions and and approval of our particular group. [/QUOTE] I don’t have a comment; that just bears repeating. > [@](#): > > That’s not the point. **KB** claims people are taught divine truth by the HS. and to others without this special gift, it seems like nonsense and contradiction but it really isn’t. I pointed out that even those who make this claim and use it to avoid making sense often contradict each other on what the divine truth is and what the Holy Spirit {which we assume would be perfect} is teaching. Using the blind men and the elephant… Sometimes I think we’re all blind and trying to grab out for truth. (A piece of the elephant.) And I’m convinced that many people are holding on to things that aren’t actually part of the elephant and claiming they are. And none of us actually have any concept of what an elephant is. And sometimes I think that the only real difference between an unbeliever and a believer is that believers are convinced that **there is** an elephant. (ie. that there is a connection between these things that otherwise appear to be contradictions. I don’t think we always know what it is, so we can’t explain away the apparent contradiction.) Where an unbeliever having no concept of elephant, sees only contradiction. > [@](#): > > I’m just trying to find a way around the “without the HS you just can’t understand” dodge" if there is one. Then again. I’ve seen times when they can’t or won’t accept explanations for things I think are simple concepts. take the list someone linked to earlier [http://www.thinkatheist.com/notes/10…s\_in\_the\_Bible](http://www.thinkatheist.com/notes/10...s_in_the_Bible) > [@](#): > > 1. How many pairs of clean animals did God tell Noah to take into the Ark? This one is explained with simple english. If you actually read it. Often I think they don’t. The context clearly states, “by twos, the male and the female,” (i.e. a **single** pair.) of clean animals, by sevens, the male and the female, (i.e. **seven** pairs.) and entering the ark by twos, the male and the female, (once again, by pairs.) How can they understand a more complex concept like faith vs. works if they can’t properly parse a simple english sentence? And most of the rest are like asking a historian why he has two different accounts of the same battle, since they disagree on how many people attended. And it’s a good argument against anyone who claims the bible is unerring, but most of the rest of us don’t find it the problem they think we should. > [@](#): > > So, If one teacher claimed and the HS said the world is round and another claimed the HS said the world is flat that would probably be a contradiction not based on different perspectives wouldn’t you say? This is a bit of a nit-pick, but the earth is very nearly flat. It only varies from flat by 4 inches in a mile. That’s less than one part in 17000. Local variations completely swamp the data signal you’re looking for on that one. So, taking the world as flat on a small scale doesn’t bring up a contradiction. (and by small scale, I still mean a thousand miles or more.) Anyway, the debate seems in good hands with you. I really have no problems with what you say. Was just looking for clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/135 "2009-04-09T14:50:13Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > And man’s study of God’s creation is fundamentally seriously and fatally flawed as pointed out in the very instructions that God who created everything tells us. If this is true then you cannot trust your interpretation of God’s word, since that is also ‘man’s study’. > [@](#): > > God states ‘lean not on your own understanding’. God does not work how we would expect Him to, but He does work His way. And His way is far more proof then any proof man can come up with. I can not make you understand the scriptures, but I can tell you that you can not understand them the way you expect to - that can not work (so the answer to the OP is no, what you are asking for can not exist). > > I gave you some of what has been revealed to me, not so you take my word for it, but hopefully God will use that to open your mind to there are other ways of looking at reality, equally as valid, actually far more valid, then the reality you have been taught and are so sure your way is the only way. In short your worldview is self refuting. > [@](#): > > Again lean not on your own understanding - with God a flat and round world coexisting very well be true. If you cannot rely on your own autonomy then you have no basis for believing anything, since you need to believe that your own sensory apparatus is reliable in order to discern what scripture is and what it means. Your worldview is contradictory and self refuting and thus incoherent. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/136 "2009-04-09T14:55:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I humbly request that you quit posting in this thread if all you intend to do is make claims that pretty much force other posters to openly question your sanity. > Thank you. I think you should start a new thread with this request in the OP. I would, but you’re a better writer than I am. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/137 "2009-04-09T15:00:23Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And mind you, this wasn’t a case of trying to witness-this was simply someone who was just interested in going to church with a friend to see what it was all about-and he suggested writing a letter to Jesus. Uhhhh…hello, a little logic problem here. It depends- was he suggesting the atheist pray/write a letter to Jesus as an act of personal piety or as an experiment to see if he got a response? If the former- then, yeah, that doesn’t make sense. If the latter, then it’s not a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/138 "2009-04-09T23:44:35Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > It depends- was he suggesting the atheist pray/write a letter to Jesus as an act of personal piety or as an experiment to see if he got a response? If the former- then, yeah, that doesn’t make sense. If the latter, then it’s not a bad idea. Mostly the guy was asking about [going to church to socialize](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=499127). Here is **kanicbird** ’s response: > [@](#): > > Loneliness or a term I use more often is isolation is horrible, perhaps the worst thing that a person can endure. Taking your question from a believer in Jesus’ perspective is that God does not want us to be isolated, though He does use that on us sometimes. > > Though you state your a atheist, you are entering a house dedicated to Lord Jesus, and you are doing it for a reason, to gain something for yourself, something a loving God would want you to have anyway. > > I would suggest that, even though you are a atheist, you pray, or talk to Jesus, or write Him a letter, explaining your situation and why you want to enter His house. Take it from your heart, that you are very lonely and want to find fellowship. let Him know you are a atheist, don’t hold anything back, be totally honest. (yes God knows everything, even your thoughts, but this makes you be honest with yourself). After this I suspect you will know more what you should do. (I think it was the part where he says, “Let Him know you are an atheist”…that just made me go :dubious:) ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/139 "2009-04-10T02:51:23Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > It depends- was he suggesting the atheist pray/write a letter to Jesus as an act of personal piety or as an experiment to see if he got a response? If the former- then, yeah, that doesn’t make sense. If the latter, then it’s not a bad idea. Years ago I asked, with all sincerity for Jesus to enter my heart. Nothing happened. Your mileage may vary. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852/140 "2009-04-10T03:45:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Mostly the guy was asking about [going to church to socialize](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=499127). Here is **kanicbird** ’s response: > > (I think it was the part where he says, “Let Him know you are an atheist”…that just made me go :dubious:) Actually, that was one of his more coherent & sensible discourses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-bible-pretty-much-fatally-flawed/491852.md?page=8)