# Is the Christmas tree really once a pagan icon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175 "2005-12-05T15:03:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/1 "2005-12-05T15:03:52Z")
And since it is now associated with Christmas, is it really correct to say it still is a pagan icon? What about December 25th? Since nobody celebrate the {What is the name of that pagan god}'s birthday, can it really be considered still stolen from the pagans? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/2 "2005-12-05T15:14:05Z")
I’m not sure about the tree, but December 25th has represented the winter solstice since prehistory: a celebration of the shortest day in the year and the coming of spring now that the back of winter is broken. It is now considered probable that the ancient Britons did not use Stonehenge to celebrate midsummer sunrise (as many people still gather to do), but _midwinter sunset_. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/3 "2005-12-05T15:14:22Z")
> [@](#): > > {What is the name of that pagan god} I have an ‘anti-Chick Tract’ called _HEATHENS **IDOLIZE** SCHOOL PRAYER_. In it a bunch of Pagans go to the Board of Education to voice their support for school prayer. On Monday the kids would worship the Moon (Moon Day). On Tuesday the kids would fight to worship Tui, the Teutonic God of War. Wednesday (Woden’s Day) they would worship Woden (or Odin), who is the chief Teutonic god. Thursday (Thor’s Day) they would worship the God of Thunder. Friday (Freya’s Day) they would worship Frigga/Freya. ‘I don’t _WANT_ them to know anything about this _weiro rubbish!_ I just want them to put God back in the schools where He belongs!’ ‘So do WE… BUT WHOSE idea of god? We just want ours!’ 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/4 "2005-12-05T15:21:52Z")
I have heard plenty of evidence that elements of Christianity have been stolen from Pagan religions. In fact, you might even say it is simply a remake of the Old Sun-god cult. Nothing about the Christmas tree, however. Could you elaborate on what you have heard? But to answer a more general question: I steal something from a neighbor, let’s say, a really nice pen. Thirty years later, I am still using it. However, he has died of old age. Now, people come to my house all the time. They see me using the pen. They associate it with me, and not my former neighbor. Thus, it has lost all connections with the neighbor. Can it still be said to be stolen? **Yes, of course it can, you . . . .!** ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/5 "2005-12-05T15:47:18Z")
Last year at Thanksgiving we were watching TV (something we don’t have at home) and watched the Monsignor of some Archdiocese-or-other giving an address. Speaking as a Catholic clergyman, he said borrowing traditions of other older religions was an acknowledged Catholic practice. The traditions were regarded as harmless (if meaningless, since there is No Other God, etc etc) and if people could be made more comfortable with Catholicism as a consequence of their pagan practices being adopted and brought along into the fold of Christianity, well, that’s all fine and good, yes? Admittedly, him saying so doesn’t make him factually correct. Doesn’t even mean that what he was stating reflects the position of the mama church, could just be his own opinions / interpretation of history as he was taught at the university. At a minimum, though, it would seem to indicate that the church doesn’t have an official position contradicting this. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/6 "2005-12-05T16:11:36Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Last year at Thanksgiving we were watching TV (something we don’t have at home) and watched the Monsignor of some Archdiocese-or-other giving an address. Speaking as a Catholic clergyman, he said borrowing traditions of other older religions was an acknowledged Catholic practice. The traditions were regarded as harmless (if meaningless, since there is No Other God, etc etc) and if people could be made more comfortable with Catholicism as a consequence of their pagan practices being adopted and brought along into the fold of Christianity, well, that’s all fine and good, yes? Heck, I’d just call that good marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/7 "2005-12-05T16:19:16Z")
IIRC, the evergreen tree is a symbol of life/renewal of life, and the growing season/Summer, and was used by Germanic people in their Pagan Winter Solstice celebrations. Lots of things were adapted by the ancient Christians from Pagan practices. Not only was it practical, it was ingenius. They noticed when natives of a region held a festival, and adapted their Holy Days to that time of year, so they’d get converts. They adapted certain practices and symbolism because the people they were hoping to convert were already familiar with the symbolism. This happened in many places, for example the Native Americans who called to the Great Spirit were already familiar with the idea of monotheism, and so it was easier to convert them. ---
**Author:** ![aurelian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@aurelian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aurelian)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/8 "2005-12-05T16:46:09Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Last year at Thanksgiving we were watching TV (something we don’t have at home) and watched the Monsignor of some Archdiocese-or-other giving an address. Speaking as a Catholic clergyman, he said borrowing traditions of other older religions was an acknowledged Catholic practice. The traditions were regarded as harmless (if meaningless, since there is No Other God, etc etc) and if people could be made more comfortable with Catholicism as a consequence of their pagan practices being adopted and brought along into the fold of Christianity, well, that’s all fine and good, yes? > > Admittedly, him saying so doesn’t make him factually correct. Doesn’t even mean that what he was stating reflects the position of the mama church, could just be his own opinions / interpretation of history as he was taught at the university. At a minimum, though, it would seem to indicate that the church doesn’t have an official position contradicting this. This sort of “borrowing” happened all the time during the Spanish conquest of America. Practices were often analogized (ie, drawing a parallel between the worship of a mother goddess figure and the Virgin Mary; between the Inca and God). Of course, the level of tolerance varied greatly based on region, historical moment and political stability: in the late 16th century, a Franciscan-led inquisition brutally tortured (and killed some) of the Yucatan Mayan population because of alleged idol worship; at the other extreme, in Brazil creoles often consulted slave healers and diviners to try and cure illnesses or influence life events. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/9 "2005-12-05T17:26:21Z")
Here is a challenge- find the earliest example of using a decorated tree to celebrate winter solstice. I’m beginning to think we’ve all been BS’d by Alexander Hislop’s mid-1800s ultra-Protty anti-Catholic classic THE TWO BABYLONS. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/10 "2005-12-05T17:29:58Z")
> [@BluePitbull](#): > > Is the Christmas tree really once a pagan icon? And since it is now associated with Christmas, is it really correct to say it still is a pagan icon? While Christmas trees have their origins in evergreens used in early Solstice celebrations, I think it is a bit of a stretch to call them a “pagan icon”. Germanic pagans weren’t worshiping trees, they were just symbolically appropriate decoration. > [@BluePitbull](#): > > What about December 25th? Since nobody celebrate the {What is the name of that pagan god}'s birthday, can it really be considered still stolen from the pagans? It seems to me that modern Christmas celebrations draw from the Roman Saturnalia (gift-giving) and Northern European Solstice celebrations (evergreens, holly, mistletoe, lights). I’m not sure which pagan god you’re refering to, but Dec. 25th was known as the [Dies Natalis Solus Invicti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus) (The Birthday of the Unconquered Sun), in association with the Solstice. One can recognize these influences without saying that the Christians were “stealing” from the pagans. The symbolism is appropriate for what the Christians are celebrating too. As a pagan, I have no problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/11 "2005-12-05T17:40:48Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Here is a challenge- > > find the earliest example of using a decorated tree to celebrate winter solstice. Decorated trees are a purely Christmas decoration, no doubt. The legend is that Martin Luther began the tradition, which had its start in 16th century Germany. [Cite](http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html) [Cite](http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/12 "2005-12-05T20:20:29Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Here is a challenge- > > find the earliest example of using a decorated tree to celebrate winter solstice. > > I’m beginning to think we’ve all been BS’d by Alexander Hislop’s mid-1800s ultra-Protty anti-Catholic classic THE TWO BABYLONS. Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” (KJV). Not specifically solstice, although the practice of decorating with evergreen for Saturnalia appears to be rather well documented. I’m not sure (though it seems likely) that the evergreens were decorated, and they were more likely garlands than trees. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas\_tree.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@Sweet\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/13 "2005-12-05T22:17:36Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Heck, I’d just call that good marketing. It’s pure genius is what it is. By integrating certain pagan festivals into their religious holy days, Catholics allowed the people they were converting to hold on to the rituals that gave them comfort, while the church could influence the faith aspect of their lives and feel as though they were doing their Christian, evangelical duty. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/14 "2005-12-05T22:42:01Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > I’m not sure which pagan god you’re refering to, but Dec. 25th was known as the [Dies Natalis Solus Invicti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus) (The Birthday of the Unconquered Sun), in association with the Solstice. Generally, no (depending on which calendar you’re using). _Dies Natalis Solus Invicti_ is on Dec 23rd, of course. The Solstice. Not saying that there might not have been a few years- preGregorian Calendar- where the Solstice was on Dec 25th, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/15 "2005-12-05T23:11:28Z")
Also there’s the possibility that the celebration was intentionally a few days after the actual solstice to be sure that the sun was indeed rising bit earlier or setting a bit later. Yep, we’re not doomed to freeze in the dark after all. Yippee! Let’s have a party! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/16 "2005-12-05T23:25:41Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I’m not sure about the tree, but December 25th has represented the winter solstice since prehistory . . . Nitpick: While that is almost certainly true, nowadays (because of the precession of equinoxes, I think) the winter solstice usually falls on December 21 or 22. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter\_solstice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice) Regarding the Christmas tree, the Wikipedia provides the following – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas\_tree#History:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree#History:) > [@](#): > > The Christmas tree is often explained as a Christianization of the ancient pagan idea that the evergreen tree represents a celebration of the renewal of life. In Roman mosaics from what is today Tunisia, showing the mythic triumphant return from India of the Greek god of wine and male fertility, Dionysus (dubbed by some modern scholars as a life-death-rebirth deity), the god carries a tapering coniferous tree. Medieval legends, nevertheless, tended to concentrate more on the miraculous “flowering” of trees at Christmastime. A branch of flowering Glastonbury thorn is still sent annually for the Queen’s Christmas table in the United Kingdom. > > Among early Germanic tribes the Yule tradition was celebrated by sacrificing male animals, and slaves, by suspending them on the branches of trees. According to Adam of Bremen, in Scandinavia the pagan kings sacrificed nine males of each species at the sacred groves every ninth year. According to one legend, Saint Boniface attempted to introduce the idea of trinity to the pagan tribes using the cone-shaped evergreen trees because of their triangular appearance. > > The modern custom, however, cannot be proved to be descended from pagan tradition directly. It can be traced to 16th century Germany: Ingeborg Weber-Keller (Marburg professor of European ethnology) identified as the earliest reference a Bremen guild chronicle of 1570 which reports how a small fir was decorated with apples, nuts, dates, pretzels and paper flowers, and erected in the guild-house, for the benefit of the guild members’ children, who collected the dainties on Christmas day. Another early reference is from Basel, where the taylor apprentices carried around town a tree decorated with apples and cheese in 1597. During the 17th century, the custom entered family homes. One Strasbourg priest, Johann Konrad Dannerhauer, complains about the custom as distracting from the word of God. By the early 18th century, the custom had become common in towns of the upper Rhineland, but it had not yet spread to rural areas. Wax candles are attested from the late 18th century. The Christmas tree remained confined to the upper Rhineland for a relatively long time. It was regarded as a Protestant custom by the Catholic majority along the lower Rhine, and was spread there only by Prussian officials who were moved there in the wake of the Congress of Vienna in 1815. In the early 19th century, the custom became popular among the nobility and spread to royal courts as far as Russia. Princess Henrietta von Nassau-Weilburg introduced the Christmas tree to Vienna in 1816, and the custom spread across Austria in the following years. In France, the first Christmas tree was introduced in 1840 by the duchess of Orleans. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/17 "2005-12-05T23:44:17Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > I steal something from a neighbor, let’s say, a really nice pen. Thirty years later, I am still using it. However, he has died of old age. Now, people come to my house all the time. They see me using the pen. They associate it with me, and not my former neighbor. Thus, it has lost all connections with the neighbor. Can it still be said to be stolen!\*\*[/SIZE][/COLOR] Yes it still is you dirty thief!!! But, hurumph…to continue the pen metaphor…and because I have a good pen story…my SO gave me a really nice pen for Christmas last year. In large part because one of the first things we talked about whne we were getting to know each other was him splashing out 60 pounds :eek: for a pen. So down the line he bought me a pen from the same place…except mine had Simpsons characters all over it. Because one of the things that came up when when we were getting to know each other was my need to see the Simpsons at least once a day. At any rate my point (and I do have one) is that if you stole my pen (thief!!!) the associations I have for it might disappear. But the Simpsons would still be there. And if you were writing with it one day and someone came in as said oh I see you love the Simpsons and you said “Homer who?”… then yes it would still be stolen. My point (and I’m getting to it) is that as a symbol it has a certain (pagan, not Christian) connotation. Not Christian. Not to say it can’t be adapted but…yes the pagan idea is right there. Not that I have any problem with Christians picking up pagan symbols. It WAS a very good marketing strategy. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2005, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/18 "2005-12-05T23:56:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nitpick: While that is almost certainly true, nowadays (because of the precession of equinoxes, I think) the winter solstice usually falls on December 21 or 22. I don’t think that’s changed. As I think has been noted, the 25th was not the celebration of the equinox (which did take place usually the 21, 22, 23) it was a celbration of a skeptically minded people who waited a couple days to make sure the sun was _really_ coming back. (And I rather like that about them 🙂 ) And having read your post…prehaps it’s not directly pagan. But I stand by the idea that it’s indirectly pagan…and part of the “folk” tradition not the Christain tradition. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/19 "2005-12-06T02:41:37Z")
\ I’m sure you meant “solstice.” The equinoxes are vernal (spring) and autumnal, when the day and night are of equal length. \ ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175/20 "2005-12-06T03:25:19Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > \ > I’m sure you meant “solstice.” The equinoxes are vernal (spring) and autumnal, when the day and night are of equal length. > \ :smack: I can’t believe I did that. But…but…I was led into error by others! Who I suspect are witches. Witches, I say!!! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-christmas-tree-really-once-a-pagan-icon/334175.md?page=2)