# Is the CIA making America safer? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839 "2007-04-19T20:32:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XaMcQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f9ae1b/32.png) [@XaMcQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XaMcQ)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/21 "2007-04-24T22:16:01Z")
[QUOTE=awldune] Wait… What? [/QUOTE] I’m not making the argument that abortion is evil, but some people do, and take up arms. I consider these people criminals, but they consider themselves heroes. Didn’t mean to be confusing. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/22 "2007-04-24T22:50:07Z")
[Gladio](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladio) > [@](#): > > Gladio (Italian, from Latin gladius, meaning sword) is a code name denoting the clandestine NATO “stay-behind” operation in Italy after World War II, intended to counter a Warsaw Pact invasion of Western Europe. Although Gladio specifically refers to the Italian branch of the NATO stay-behind organisations, Operation Gladio is the code name for all stay-behind organisations. Operating in all of NATO and even in some neutral countries or in Spain before its 1982 adhesion to NATO, Gladio was first coordinated by the Clandestine Committee of the Western Union (CCWU), founded in 1948. After the creation of NATO in 1949, the CCWU was integrated into the Clandestine Planning Committee (CPC), founded in 1951 and overseen by the SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe), transferred to Belgium after France’s official withdrawal from NATO in 1966 — which was not followed by the dissolution of the French stay-behind paramilitary movements. According to historian Daniele Ganser, one of the major researcher on the field, “Next to the CPC, a second secret army command center, labeled the Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC), was set up in 1957 on the orders of NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander in Europe (SACEUR). This military structure provided for significant US leverage over the secret stay-behind networks in Western Europe as the SACEUR, throughout NATO’s history, has traditionally been a US General who reports to the Pentagon in Washington and is based in NATO’s Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE) in Mons, Belgium. The ACC’s duties included elaborating on the directives of the network, developing its clandestine capability, and organizing bases in Britain and the United States. In wartime, it was to plan stay-behind operations in conjunction with SHAPE. According to former CIA director William Colby, it was ‘a major program’.”[1] > > The role of the CIA in sponsoring Gladio and the extent of its activities during the Cold War era, and its relationship to false flag attacks perpetrated in Italy during the years of lead and other similar clandestine operations is the subject of ongoing debate and investigation. Italy, Switzerland and Belgium have had parliamentary inquiries into the matter. There are some really good documentaries on Gladio that I watched a while back if anyone’s interested. Gladio was essentially a right wing intelligence movement in Europe designed to combat communism. A good number of Nazi Intelligence officers were given a pass after World War II as an integral part of the whole operation. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/23 "2007-04-25T05:26:50Z")
The problem with the CIA is that it’s fuck-ups have such spectacular long-term bad effects that it is difficult to see how any good they have achieved could balance things out. Consider their ouster of Iran’s democratically-elected president Mossadegh and the installation of the Shah. The Shah’s reign was so brutal and dictatorial that it inspired the Islamic Revolution. Now that the mullahs are in power, we see them funding all sorts of enemies of the US–Hamas, Hizbullah, etc. (Incidentally, in his excellent book _Endless Enemies_, Jonathan Kwitney surmises that if Mossadegh had remained in power, the USSR might not have invaded Afghanistan, for fear of the intervention by a nationalist Iran who didn’t want any meddling in the region from up north. And just think of how different the last 10 years would have been had the USSR not invaded Afghanistan). And since Iran is the badguy, we have to defend Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war, protecting them from any international criticism for using illegal chemical weapons, etc., and helping to arm Iraq. And of course, if we hadn’t done that, Iraq might well not have invaded Kuwait…The blowback just goes on and on. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/24 "2007-04-25T06:20:38Z")
It would appear the more the CIA operates in a certain theater – especially when we’re talking about coups – the more the people at large seem to harbor serious anti-American sentiment. The CIA also seems mostly interested in supporting U.S. business interests and, in the past, supporting ruthless dictators as long as they said bad things about the USSR during the cold war. So I guess the answer is no, assuming the anti-American feelings ever transform into action. Speaking of coups, does anyone know how many the CIA has pulled off/tried? I think I remember there being 40 for South America alone, although I don’t know if that includes failed coups and assassinations (e.g. Chavez 2002) or just the ones that worked. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/25 "2007-04-25T06:25:20Z")
HAVE any worked since Guatemala in, what, the 1950s? ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/26 "2007-04-25T09:44:31Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] You really want to die naïve, and you don’t care if you wind up enslaved, starved, and killed? [/QUOTE] Of course not, but is the CIA working to protect me from that, or push me toward it? Serious question: to what extent is the CIA willing to deprive me, an ordinary, law-abiding US citizen, of my rights in the guise of protecting me? How much should I be willing to give up in the name of safety from the faceless terror we’re told is out there, just waiting to get us? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/27 "2007-04-25T09:54:38Z")
> [@Siam Sam](#): > > HAVE any worked since Guatemala in, what, the 1950s? Focusing just on Latin America, off the top of my head I can think of Chile, Brazil, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Panama, and Nicaragua. I think we changed leadership in Haiti like three or four times over sixty years. It’d probably be easier to name countries whose leaders we didn’t overthrow or whose internal politics we didn’t screw with. If you really want to feel sad try looking up Operation Condor sometime. It’s why Henry Kissinger chooses not to travel too much anymore… ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/28 "2007-04-25T11:55:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sublight] Of course not, but is the CIA working to protect me from that, or push me toward it? Serious question: to what extent is the CIA willing to deprive me, an ordinary, law-abiding US citizen, of my rights in the guise of protecting me? How much should I be willing to give up in the name of safety from the faceless terror we’re told is out there, just waiting to get us? [/QUOTE] How did you feel on September 12th? ---
**Author:** ![XaMcQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f9ae1b/32.png) [@XaMcQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XaMcQ)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/29 "2007-04-25T19:15:30Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] How did you feel on September 12th? [/QUOTE] I hope you don’t mind if I answer that as well. I hoped we would take a serious look at some our foreign policies, as well as go after the guilty. I can’t tell you how disappointed I am that we got nothing but comic book, black/white, ‘evil-doers hate us for our freedoms’ rhetoric, and then the Patriot Act, ‘Free Speech Zones’ and a bogus war against Iraq. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/30 "2007-04-25T21:51:30Z")
[QUOTE=XaMcQ] I hope you don’t mind if I answer that as well. I hoped we would take a serious look at some our foreign policies, as well as go after the guilty. I can’t tell you how disappointed I am that we got nothing but comic book, black/white, ‘evil-doers hate us for our freedoms’ rhetoric, and then the Patriot Act, ‘Free Speech Zones’ and a bogus war against Iraq. :mad: [/QUOTE] You said that you’d answer that and then…well you didn’t. I know I was more than a little pissed out that we hadn’t taken off our kid gloves earlier. But maybe you were feeling kinder and gentler ---
**Author:** ![XaMcQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f9ae1b/32.png) [@XaMcQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XaMcQ)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/31 "2007-04-26T02:38:44Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] You said that you’d answer that and then…well you didn’t. I know I was more than a little pissed out that we hadn’t taken off our kid gloves earlier. But maybe you were feeling kinder and gentler [/QUOTE] How I felt? Is that what you want to know? I felt sad and angry. I felt like we, as a nation, should ask ourselves some tough questions about why that happened, heinous though it was. I wasn’t the least bit surprised that it happened. The how, yes, but the fact we were attacked, not a bit surprised. I wasn’t jumping up and down saying ‘kill, kill’ or 'let’s nuke ‘em all’, so maybe you would think I’m weak. But I’m really curious about just who you feel we should have not been handling with kid gloves? Would that be Saudi Arabia, where the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were from? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/32 "2007-04-26T03:27:54Z")
snip ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/33 "2007-04-26T04:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=mstay] Focusing just on Latin America, off the top of my head I can think of Chile, Brazil, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Panama, and Nicaragua. I think we changed leadership in Haiti like three or four times over sixty years. It’d probably be easier to name countries whose leaders we didn’t overthrow or whose internal politics we didn’t screw with. If you really want to feel sad try looking up Operation Condor sometime. It’s why Henry Kissinger chooses not to travel too much anymore… [/QUOTE] Ah yes, Chile. But to tell you the truth, I always thought Allende was a dick anyway. But not Nicaragua; Somoza Senior was installed before the 1950s and by the US military, not by the CIA. As for Panama, DID we install Noriega or just take him onboard after he came to power himself? Same with some of the others on your list; were they before or since 1956? You mentioned Haiti over 60 years, but I specifically meant since Guatemala in 1956, not before, and by the CIA. Chile is a good call, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/34 "2007-04-26T05:09:33Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] How did you feel on September 12th? [/QUOTE] Like the US should track down the person(s) responsible and bring them to justice. Six and half years later, I see jack wrt to actually achieving that, plus a mountain of BS restrictions and bureaucracy implemented in the name of ‘doing something’, topped off with secret prisons, indefinite detentions, torture, and an additional 3,000 dead pursuing a phony war. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/35 "2007-04-26T05:12:13Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] How did you feel on September 12th? [/QUOTE] As though my initial emotional reaction was the purest response that I would ever have, I felt as though the weight of reason was lifted from my shoulders knowing that that pure feeling was all the information I would ever need. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/36 "2007-04-26T12:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=XaMcQ] How I felt? Is that what you want to know? I felt sad and angry. I felt like we, as a nation, should ask ourselves some tough questions about why that happened, heinous though it was. I wasn’t the least bit surprised that it happened. The how, yes, but the fact we were attacked, not a bit surprised. I wasn’t jumping up and down saying ‘kill, kill’ or 'let’s nuke ‘em all’, so maybe you would think I’m weak. But I’m really curious about just who you feel we should have not been handling with kid gloves? Would that be Saudi Arabia, where the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were from? [/QUOTE] Yes, I was angry at the situations in Saudi Arabia. And thanks for asking, yes, I know that’s where most of the 9/11 terrorists were from. But before you launch into another response stating that America was to blame for 9/11, what do you think we could to placate these terrorists? End our support of Israel? Stop buying oil in the middle east? But they like our money. Stop protecting our national interests? But I bet you like heating your home, and driving your car. As I travel in the middle east and in Europe, I always observe one phenomena. There further away people are from the pointy end of the spear, the action, the more idealist they are. ---
**Author:** ![XaMcQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f9ae1b/32.png) [@XaMcQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XaMcQ)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/37 "2007-04-26T16:01:23Z")
[QUOTE=spifflog] Yes, I was angry at the situations in Saudi Arabia. And thanks for asking, yes, I know that’s where most of the 9/11 terrorists were from. But before you launch into another response stating that America was to blame for 9/11, what do you think we could to placate these terrorists? End our support of Israel? Stop buying oil in the middle east? But they like our money. Stop protecting our national interests? But I bet you like heating your home, and driving your car. As I travel in the middle east and in Europe, I always observe one phenomena. There further away people are from the pointy end of the spear, the action, the more idealist they are. [/QUOTE] I think there was plenty of blame to spread around, actually. As for placating terrorists, I’m against it. I’m for arresting them, locking them up and treating them like the criminals they are. I’m also for looking for ways to possibly prevent creating them in the first place, by supporting moderates who want to bring changes in their own countries, by helping to fund education and anti-poverty program so that a fundamentalist madras is not the only place a lot of kids can learn to read, and that groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, or the Taliban can gain wide-spread community support by providing food, daycare or other services to the poor when nobody else seems to be giving a damn. Yes, I like having heat and transportation, but I think we should be working a lot harder to end our dependence on fossil fuels, particularly from other countries, if our way of getting it is going to frequently cause us to support regimes that behave in ways we claim to despise, and whose people are going to hold us responsible for that, and rightly so. And you may be right that my idealism would fold under threat. I’ve never been tested that way, but some of my heroes throughout history have been, and they didn’t. Not everyone does, and I’d hope I would be brave and stand for my convictions. I honestly believe that that is the only way humanity is slowly clawing it’s way beyond ‘might makes right’. I hope so, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/38 "2007-04-26T21:24:45Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] Ah yes, Chile. But to tell you the truth, I always thought Allende was a dick anyway. [/quote] I think Bush is a dick but I wouldn’t appreciate it if China formented a coup and put us under a military dictatorship which killed and tortured thousands of people. I prefer democracy, flawed as it may be in certain circumstances. > [@](#): > > But not Nicaragua; Somoza Senior was installed before the 1950s and by the US military, not by the CIA. True. > [@](#): > > As for Panama, DID we install Noriega or just take him onboard after he came to power himself? Noriega was a CIA asset and on the payroll for a really long time. It’s debatable whether we installed him; there’s no evidence that the U.S. was directly involved in the assassination of Omar Torrijos. Many involved claim Noriega did it with CIA help but no documents have been publically declassified to support this. It is true, however, that we invaded Panama to remove Noriega. > [@](#): > > Same with some of the others on your list; were they before or since 1956? You mentioned Haiti over 60 years, but I specifically meant since Guatemala in 1956, not before, and by the CIA. Chile is a good call, though. The CIA is always working the opposition groups whether the U.S. military has to do its thing or not, that’s their job. For example, Brazil 1964 – the CIA armed and trained the opposition. As the coup was commencing we positioned U.S. navy assets off the coast. Later declassified audio tapes and documents reveal that Johnson was prepared to use the U.S. military to ensure the coup went as planned. A decent list of CIA coups (and a good intro on how they train the opposition) can be found http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/39 "2007-04-27T00:59:57Z")
All right-I was wrong about Bin Laden and I appologize. :smack: However, I believe we DID support Saddam at one time. I would look into [Smedley Butler](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler) and _War is a Racket_. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2007, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839/40 "2007-04-28T19:21:40Z")
> **[A Timeline of CIA Atrocities](http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html)** > > A timeline of CIA atrocities. The CIA has been involved in disgusting activities since its, inception. They work for money not for peace or stability. They are not concerned with the morality of what they do. Therefore they commit atrocities with little justification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-cia-making-america-safer/400839.md?page=1)