# Is the composer, Franz Schubert gay? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 16, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661 "2011-04-16T22:54:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![peeyaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@peeyaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peeyaj)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/1 "2011-04-16T22:54:36Z")
[http://rogerbourland.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/schubert\_4.jpg](http://rogerbourland.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/schubert_4.jpg) Franz Schubert, considered as the greatest songwriter who ever lived and one of the greatest in classical music, have been endlessly debated regarding his sexuality. I read somewhere, that his music was labeled as ‘‘feminine’’ contrasted to Beethoven’s '‘masculine’… Can anyone shed light to this matter? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/2 "2011-04-16T23:03:07Z")
Well, he’s not anything right now, but like you’ve said, there’s a debate over his sexuality, and some people have claimed he was homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![peeyaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@peeyaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peeyaj)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/3 "2011-04-17T00:19:01Z")
Hope someone would provide a clear-cut explanation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/4 "2011-04-17T00:44:47Z")
After Schubert moved out of his father’s house, he moved in with this poet named Johan Mayrhofer, with whom he had collaborated, setting some of Mayrhofer’s poems to music. Three years later, they had a falling out and Schubert moved out. It’s possible Mayrhofer was gay and Schubert was gay and that they had a sexual relationship. Some have suggested it. Some have denied it. Some have said there’s evidence of his homosexuality in his music. Some have said there’s evidence of a heterosexual affair in his music. There’s just a lot of speculation and we probably won’t know either way. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/5 "2011-04-17T00:56:50Z")
A gay musician? Next thing you know they’ll be black men in the NBA 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/6 "2011-04-17T01:08:29Z")
> [@peeyaj](#): > > I read somewhere, that his music was labeled as ‘‘feminine’’ contrasted to Beethoven’s '‘masculine’.. There isn’t really a shortage of butch gay men, it should be noted. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/7 "2011-04-17T06:06:44Z")
There is a strong tradition of “feminine” vs. “masculine” in the critical literature beginning in the 19 century (e.g. the biographies of Mozart and Beethoven by [Otto Jahn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Jahn)); with Mozart (gentle and feminine) vis-a-vis Beethoven (the new manhood). Now with the rise of studies in feminine and homosexual studies in musicology questions like OP are being asked all over. Re Schubert, the superb scholar Maynard Solomon’s 1989 article _Franz Schubert and the Peacocks of Benvenuto Cellini_ gathers near-convincing evidence that Schubert was in fact a pederast, if that helps. The article created a shitstorm of controversy and popular prurient interest. (A poor [overview](http://faculty.washington.edu/gibbs/Arguments.html) of scholarly debates on the article until 2000 is available.) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/8 "2011-04-18T05:49:03Z")
> [@peeyaj](#): > > I read somewhere, that his music was labeled as ‘‘feminine’’ contrasted to Beethoven’s '‘masculine’.. That’s rather ironic, as Beethoven’s relationship with his young nephew Karl was notorious. It eventually ended with the nephew shooting himself, and Beethoven going into a severe depression. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/9 "2011-04-18T12:27:27Z")
Schubert is like, dead, totally. So we’re definitely talking safe sex here. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/10 "2011-04-18T16:16:24Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > There is a strong tradition of “feminine” vs. “masculine” in the critical literature beginning in the 19 century (e.g. the biographies of Mozart and Beethoven by [Otto Jahn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Jahn)); with Mozart (gentle and feminine) vis-a-vis Beethoven (the new manhood). Now with the rise of studies in feminine and homosexual studies in musicology questions like OP are being asked all over. Another example - [Boccherini](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Boccherini) was described as “the wife of Haydn” with no intended comment on his sexuality. (Wikipedia says this was dismissive; Slonimsky in Baker’s Biographical Dictionary of Musicians says this merely is a comment on the affinity of Haydn’s and Boccherini’s music. Rule number 1 of musicology - believe Slonimsky.) ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/11 "2011-04-18T21:40:59Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > … evidence that Schubert was in fact a pederast, if that helps… Hardly. If anything, it promotes a conflation of ideas that are unrelated and should remain that way. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/12 "2011-04-19T04:25:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Schubert is like, dead, totally. > > So we’re definitely talking safe sex here. Practice necrophilia, and you’re dead to me! ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/13 "2011-04-20T23:01:35Z")
In my reply to OP, I wrote two grafs. In their entirety: ``` *There is a strong tradition of "feminine" vs. "masculine" in the critical literature beginning in the 19 century (e.g. the biographies of Mozart and Beethoven by [Otto Jahn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Jahn)); with Mozart (gentle and feminine) vis-a-vis Beethoven (the new manhood). Now with the rise of studies in feminine and homosexual studies in musicology questions like OP are being asked all over. ``` Re Schubert, the superb scholar Maynard Solomon’s 1989 article \* \*Franz Schubert and the Peacocks of Benvenuto Cellini gathers near-convincing evidence that Schubert was in fact a pederast, if that helps. The article created a shitstorm of controversy and popular prurient interest. (A poor [overview](http://faculty.washington.edu/gibbs/Arguments.html) of scholarly debates on the article until 2000 is available.) _In reply, **CC** wrote_: Hardly. If anything, it promotes a conflation of ideas that are unrelated and should remain that way. \* My first graf gives an additional example germane to OP, and a response about the current wide range of gender studies at this time, including plain and simple sexual studies. “Queer” studies (I used the quotation marks advisedly) did not exist at the time. Feminism, homosexuality, and pederasty, as well as any other mix-and-match definitions and relationships, are ultimately about sexuality in one way or another. The graf concluded with a point exactly in response to OP, ending in the general state of OP’s request at this time. (Later in the thread **D18** contributed a similar example aiding the conversation. [And his appraisal of Slonimsky is spot on.]) My second graf adds a reference and brief explanation of an article famous in musicology and which the OP was perhaps unaware of. I cited it there because of the conclusion of the first graf dealing with his conclusions in an area of sexuality in Schubert. I added “if that helps” precisely because OP did not go into detail about other areas of Schubert’s sexuality, and it “may” direct his thoughts in other directions of research into the area. To repeat, Solomon’s article _is_ relevant to sexuality and Schubert, its conclusions are interesting in themselves, and it is a tour-de-force of scholarship. Pederasty is not necessary and sufficient for male homosexuality. Neither is sodomy, for that matter. Nor are a lot of other things, and **CC** might have given me the respect to maintain that I knew that. He could have spared me absurd semantic parsing. He could have read my post accurately. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/14 "2011-04-20T23:13:16Z")
Not interested in getting into a pissing contest with **Bloom.** However, I’ll say that I read his post quite carefully and noted that reference to pederasty is unrelated to Schubert’s sexual orientation re males or females, which is clearly the thrust (excuse the expression) of the OP, and does not help answer the question. Don’t waste any more of your precious time parsing semantics or whatever the hell you did in an effort to escape a minor rebuke. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/15 "2011-04-20T23:55:05Z")
—Is X gay? —Well, he’s a pædophile. —Is Y Muslim? —Well, he’s a terrorist. —Is Z Jewish? —Well, he’s an international banker. If that helps. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/16 "2011-04-21T04:40:12Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Schubert is like, dead, totally. > > So we’re definitely talking safe sex here. “They’re decomposing composers, There’s less of them every day, You can still hear Beethoven, But there’s not much of him left to play…” \* -Monty Python, “Contractual Obligation Album”\* ---
**Author:** ![Rovny\_Pitomacor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b5e925/32.png) [@Rovny\_Pitomacor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rovny_Pitomacor)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/17 "2011-05-10T22:20:12Z")
**Whether Franz Schubert was heterosexual, homosexual, or asexual, is irrelevant. What IS important is that Franz Schubert was a GENIUS ! ! ! ! !** ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/18 "2011-05-10T22:33:03Z")
> [@Rovny\_Pitomacor](#): > > **Whether Franz Schubert was heterosexual, homosexual, or asexual, is irrelevant.** You forgot **Bisexual**. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/19 "2011-05-10T22:55:06Z")
If you’re bisexual in music, you keep it to yourself. Look what happened to Leonard Bernstein. ---
**Author:** ![julien.gide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cdc98d/32.png) [@julien.gide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/julien.gide)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661/20 "2016-05-07T20:03:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > —Is X gay? > —Well, he’s a pædophile. > > —Is Y Muslim? > —Well, he’s a terrorist. > > —Is Z Jewish? > —Well, he’s an international banker. If that helps. > > :rolleyes: Pederast and pedophile are two different words with different meanings: Pedophilia refers to the illicit sexual desire for underaged girls or boys. Pedophilia, based on an older usage, refers to what you might call man-boy sex, but its illicit character all resides in the homosexuality, not the legal age of its object. Thus, more or less typically, a 19-year old can be the “boy,” a term pretty much universally used by gays to denote young man. The Greek aristocracy during Age Of Pericles tended are often referred to as pederasts. Their lovers were not pre-pubescent. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-composer-franz-schubert-gay/578661.md?page=2)