# Is the Confederacy/South more interesting than the Union/North? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643 "2019-10-11T18:40:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/61 "2019-10-12T16:30:41Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > But “hate-all-others” is easily interpretable as being _a descriptive term for the South_, not a narrowing of the focus of the comment. I’ve lived in the South all my life. I had no trouble comprehending the meaning of “hate-all-others” Southerners. I understand there is a distinct group of Southerners who are unambiguously disgusting bigots, and that they have nothing whatsoever to do with me. I have no fear of accidentally getting mistaken for one of them. I wonder why you do. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/62 "2019-10-12T16:34:01Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I don’t understand how you can interpret the OP as anything other than the \*\*post \*\*Civil War era. Actually, I meant it in the sense of the immediate pre-, during, post-war era. So, say, 1850s-1880s. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/63 "2019-10-12T17:33:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Actually, I meant it in the sense of the immediate pre-, during, post-war era. So, say, 1850s-1880s. Huh. I understood for your OP that by referring to the Confederacy, you meant the South up to and including the Civil War - the so-called “culture” they were trying to preserve. Anyway, now that we’re out of CS, it’s not really relevant any more. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/64 "2019-10-12T18:25:17Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I’ve lived in the South all my life. I had no trouble comprehending the meaning of “hate-all-others” Southerners. I understand there is a distinct group of Southerners who are unambiguously disgusting bigots, and that they have nothing whatsoever to do with me. I have no fear of accidentally getting mistaken for one of them. I wonder why you do. Hello. This was the sentence in question. > [@Exapno Mapcase](#): > > That said, fuck the antebellum South, the ending-Reconstruction South, the Jim Crow South, and the modern hate-all-the-Others South. (…). I’d say that “the antebellum South” includes the entire region, so seeing the other eras (“the Jim-Crow South” etc.) as region-wide is an understandable interpretation. BUT! It’s almost impossible to think that Exapno was also saying, “Fuck the slaves,” so taking his remark to include All Southerners is, ultimately, a flawed interpretation. I kinda doubt he even meant to include every white Southern. So, outrage is unwarranted, but slightly understandable. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/65 "2019-10-12T18:41:45Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And even the Union, while it held the moral high ground, wasnt exactly moral. Shermans march to the sea was a war crime … Union soldiers kill Confederate soldiers in battle. Well, that’s just war, bub. Union soldiers destroy property to break the economic back of the Confederate soldiers and end the war with less killing: WAR CRIME! Sorry, not seeing why destroying property is a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/66 "2019-10-12T18:50:55Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Evil is often more entertaining. And cooler uniforms. Not to mention the lure of the underdog. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/67 "2019-10-12T19:00:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Southern side gains interest from the fact that virtually all the battles took place in the South. Only Antietam and Gettysburg took place in the North, and Gettysburg does therefore get its fair share of interest. Talking about the North in the Civil War is like setting a WWII movie in Chile. > > There will be no more glorifying the South movies for a long while, though. The campaign the South has waged for 150 years is finally getting derailed. Every movie about that period for the next couple of generations will treat the South about like _Django Unchained_did. About time. > > As a historian I know exactly how badly everybody in history looks from a modern “woke” perspective. I keep telling those who wonder whether an artist’s works can still be appreciated now that they know both sides that the same applies to everyone famous ever. There are no heroes. Nobody is pure enough to pass all of our tests. > … Maybe people will stop glorifying Shelby Footes Southern apologist books. True, I mean attacking the Founders are they owned quite common perfectly legal slaves is ridiculous. That was then. _We_ will be considered evil as “we” enslaved chimps and dolphins. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/68 "2019-10-12T19:02:28Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > The Nazis, like the Japanese, were good at conducting devastating offensives against countries that desperately wanted peace and were not fully prepared for war. Surprise attacks. Even then, the overreached and couldn’t maintain momentum. > > The Confederates were good at keeping the Union at bay for a couple years as many thousands of lives were wasted putting back together what never should have been torn asunder. But at least (and I mean this sincerely) we got the end of slavery out of it. > > The common theme is both the Nazis and the Confederates were good at starting incredibly stupid, wasteful wars, but not too good at ending them. As to the last part, that’s what I meant by Nazi Germany and the CSA (Imperial Japan too) not being good at war on the strategic level. However on the tactical level CSA and Germans through most of the ACW and WWII tended to be tactically superior to their enemies, more effective per unit of combat power though not as much at the end of those conflicts as the beginning. That was also true of the Japanese Army and Navy (and each services air forces) in the early part of the Pacific War but distinctly less so later on or the other way around. It wasn’t just a matter of opponents being unprepared or wanting peace. It persisted through most of the ACW and WWII as to the Confederates and Germans v. their land opponents at least (and in the air in WWII) though the margin of tactical superiority declined toward the end in both cases as the overall bad military situation began to seriously affect the basic functioning of Confederate and German forces. The IJA and IJN’s generally superior performance combat power for combat power v. Allied opponents early in the Pac War went away faster, partly because the Japanese generally fell behind the Allies in intra-war weapons and electronics development faster than the Germans did, which was important in that war, v. intra-war technical developments not as significant a factor in the ACW. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/69 "2019-10-12T19:03:15Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/70 "2019-10-12T19:07:11Z")
There are a lot more songs about outlaws than lawmen. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/71 "2019-10-12T19:09:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > … > > D. Nathan Bedford Forrest sucks donkey schwantz. A racist murderer, known liar, and commiter of war crimes, who was actually a bad general. (But to give him his due, pretty good at cavalry raids). “Oh, he repudiated the KKK”- :rolleyes:only after being strongarmed into it. “he gave a wonderful speech to some blacks once!”:rolleyes: Maybe, but does that make up for murdering them, torturing them, and selling them? If there was any justice, he woudl have hanged for Fort Pillow. > **[Fort Pillow Massacre: Facts, Deaths & Significance | HISTORY](https://www.history.com/topics/american-civil-war/fort-pillow-massacre)** > > The Fort Pillow Massacre in Tennessee on April 12, 1864, in which some 300 African-American soldiers were killed, was one of the most controversial events of the American Civil War. Though most of the Union garrison surrendered, and thus should have... ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/72 "2019-10-12T20:44:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And cooler uniforms. > . [O RLY?](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Winslow_Homer_-_The_Brierwood_Pipe.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/73 "2019-10-12T22:28:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > [O RLY?](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Winslow_Homer_-_The_Brierwood_Pipe.jpg) Very cool- altho not very practical. The South had more Zouaves than the North, iirc. But I was thinking of SS uniforms. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/74 "2019-10-13T00:27:47Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Union soldiers kill Confederate soldiers in battle. Well, that’s just war, bub. > > Union soldiers destroy property to break the economic back of the Confederate soldiers and end the war with less killing: WAR CRIME! > > Sorry, not seeing why destroying property is a war crime. Because in this case, you’re attacking civilians, rather than other soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/75 "2019-10-13T00:52:50Z")
Tearing up the railroads that take supplies to the troops is not attacking civilians. It’s destroying the infrastructure that allows the CSA to carry on its war. Capturing food supplies that will support the CSA troops and enable them to fight is a war measure. Destroying the economy that supports the CSA troops is a war measure. Blockading the southern ports so the southern economy collapses is a war measure. Freeing slaves and turning from property into freemen is a war measure, even though it will destroy “capital investments” and the plantation economy. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/76 "2019-10-13T00:56:03Z")
Yeah, the whingeing over Sherman is more trying to cast the South as the poor put-upon underdog. Destroying your enemy’s capacity to continue to sustain the war effort is by-the-book strategic warfare. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/77 "2019-10-13T02:00:26Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Yeah, the whingeing over Sherman is more trying to cast the South as the poor put-upon underdog. Destroying your enemy’s capacity to continue to sustain the war effort is by-the-book strategic warfare. And the South stared it with their calvary raids, not to mention terrorists like Quantrill & “Bloody Bill” Anderson. > **[William Quantrill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Quantrill)** > > William Clarke Quantrill (July 31, 1837 – June 6, 1865) was a Confederate guerrilla leader during the American Civil War. > Quantrill experienced a turbulent childhood, became a schoolteacher, and joined a group of bandits who roamed the Missouri and Kansas countryside to apprehend escaped slaves. The group became Confederate soldiers called Quantrill's Raiders, a pro-Confederate partisan ranger outfit best known for its often brutal guerrilla tactics, and including the young Jesse James and his... Just that Sherman had the manpower to make it more than a “raid”. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/78 "2019-10-13T02:11:24Z")
I really don’t think it is in the interest of the Confederate apologists to throw around terms like war crimes. When Lee marched north, he seized every black he could as “contraband.” It didn’t matter if they were ever enslaved (not that it matters) or not. Black people became property of the Confederate Army. When you find yourself sticking up for an army marching through America enslaving its people, take a step back and examine your values. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/79 "2019-10-13T02:29:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Because in this case, you’re attacking civilians, rather than other soldiers. If Sherman’s actions were a war crime, so were many US actions in WWII, such as the bombings or Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki (which is admittedly arguable). While these cities had some military value, they were targeted, and large numbers of civilians were killed, largely to destroy the morale of the enemy. This was the primary motivation of Sherman’s actions. Sherman’s orders instructed that homes and other property should only be destroyed in areas that showed hostility to the advancing army, such as guerrilla attacks, burning bridges, etc., and that horses, mules, and wagons should be taken preferentially from the rich, who were hostile, rather than the poor who were neutral or friendly. Now these orders in practice were often ignored, but Sherman did not order indiscriminate destruction. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/80 "2019-10-13T02:41:17Z")
If Sherman’s march is upsetting, I can’t imagine how outraged one must be by this kind of behavior: > [@](#): > > During his invasion of Pennsylvania, Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia enslaved free blacks and brought them back to the South as property. Pryor writes that “evidence links virtually every infantry and cavalry unit in Lee’s army” with the abduction of free black Americans, “with the activity under the supervision of senior officers.” > > Soldiers under Lee’s command at the Battle of the Crater in 1864 massacred black Union soldiers who tried to surrender. Then, in a spectacle hatched by Lee’s senior corps commander A.P. Hill, the Confederates paraded the Union survivors through the streets of Petersburg to the slurs and jeers of the southern crowd. Lee never discouraged such behavior. As the historian Richard Slotkin wrote in No Quarter: The Battle of the Crater, “his silence was permissive.” > **[The Myth of the Kindly General Lee](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/)** > > The legend of the Confederate leader’s heroism and decency is based in the fiction of a person who never existed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643.md?page=5)