# Is the Confederacy/South more interesting than the Union/North? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 11, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643 "2019-10-11T18:40:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/101 "2019-10-14T05:12:26Z")
the pre-war and some the postwar of southern society was/is romanticized because it was the closest thing we had to the London “ton” and “the season” which makes for great romance novels like GWTW with the endless balls and parties and the most important decision was what one wore to the horse race or to the biggest dinner party of the year and who filled their dance card … even today you can find novels where the barley legal (or younger) plantations owner daughter either swoons over the arranged marriage with the neighbor’s son or runs away from it and meets the handsome northerner who worms her way in her heart …then the 2 males meet in epic battle ect … although there are examples in the more “aware” ones have incidents that shows how slavery was bad (usually a character’s stopping of an owned woman being raped by her owner ) In the rather large historical romance collection, i inherited it was a tie between the revolutionary war and the civil war on who had the most written on it … in fact one series started in the first and ended in the second… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/102 "2019-10-14T05:29:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The intended meaning was of course figurative. We are still fighting over some of the basic issues of the Civil War. And that fight involves large portions of the population, not a small number of radicals. I’ll concede that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/103 "2019-10-14T05:39:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Putting aside the morality issue, I think defeat is generally a better source for drama than victory is. So you’re going to see more interesting stories about characters who were on the losing side of a conflict. Defeat gives the writer something to write about. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > What about all those WWII movies where the “good guy” (whomever the viewer is meant to identify and sympathize with) wins? Nobody roots for Tom Hank because they know the Nazis are going to win in the end. I said it was _generally_ a better source for drama. Millions of stories have been told; you’re going to find a counter-example for any general rule of story-telling. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/104 "2019-10-14T16:29:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I said it was _generally_ a better source for drama. Millions of stories have been told; you’re going to find a counter-example for any general rule of story-telling. I don’t think your general rule even holds. People (or at least authors) like an underdog, sure, because it’s an easy way to introduce narrative tension. But—this is completely in line with your “millions of stories have been told” line—one need not look to the losing side in a conflict to get a heroic underdog. Take, again, _Saving Private Ryan_. Sure the D-Day landings are successful and the allies win the war, but by focusing the story on a small group of soldiers sent on a dangerous mission through contested territory, we’re allowed to envision characters on the side of moral right facing long odds and possible defeat in detail, even if their side wins in the end. If you want downtrodden/disadvantaged/forlorn soldiers struggling on against a superior force, you don’t need to tell the story of confederates, you could easily tell the story of a group of union soldiers facing defeat (and maybe even being actually defeated) in one of the many engagements that the Union lost. _Glory_, for instance. Or you could tell a story where Union troops were in a dire situation, but through tenacity and bravery managed to hold on as in the parts of _Gettysburg_ that weren’t a love song to the Confederacy. The Confederacy is unique in that there was a concerted effort on the part of southern propagandists and apologists after the war to tell the story in the most sympathetic light, through an individual lens. There is nothing about the circumstances of the Confederacy that makes especially worthy of attention by story tellers, other than that the Lost Causers did a lot of the leg work in spinning their version of the war and it’s causes into one hell of a story. A damn fanciful one at that. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/105 "2019-10-14T16:43:47Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > the pre-war and some the postwar of southern society was/is romanticized because it was the closest thing we had to the London “ton” and “the season” which makes for great romance novels like GWTW with the endless balls and parties and the most important decision was what one wore to the horse race or to the biggest dinner party of the year and who filled their dance card … > . You could do the same thing with Boston Brahmins or old Dutch families from New York. There was no shortage of idle rich up north ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/106 "2019-10-14T16:55:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You could do the same thing with Boston Brahmins or old Dutch families from New York. There was no shortage of idle rich up north And there were zillions of novels, plays, and movies made about them. Not to mention all those old murder mysteries where the action is confined to a snow-bound mansion or a private island in a storm so that one of those present has to be the murderer. Only the well-to-do could afford those. I’ve read dozens and they were always set in the northeast. But we don’t care about that aspect of society any more as a culture. WWII pretty much destroyed it. The Confederacy is a different animal that still lives and has a current culture that interests many. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/107 "2019-10-14T17:04:50Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The Confederacy is a different animal that still lives and has a current culture that interests many. Particularly if you (and this is a general you) find the idea of an ordered society where people who look like you are born into a higher social strata, and the wealthiest among them can dispense justice and mercy at their will, as if it is their god-given right to do so. Good luck telling that story, set historically and in America, outside the south. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/108 "2019-10-14T17:43:56Z")
The south definitely has it with music. Their is no song equivalent in the north to “Dixie”. Which was so good the Union made a parody of it. Watch “[Dixie - Union Version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvjOG5gboFU)”. Nobody sings a song in the north glorifying what they did like in the song “[I’m a Good Ole Rebel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5EHpok66SU)”. Where is a song such as “I’m a good Ole Unionist”? Some others: I dare you to watch the video to this song “[The Irish Brigade](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ot7amDyqbY)” and not get just a little confederate sympathies. Or the song “[Johnny Reb](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZxMDZ3TdZM&list=PLRTYQ42fb3tCC6M7sn2BJAacp3XpeWwT7&index=5)” by Johnny Horton. Watch the video of “[The Bonnie Blue Flag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVeSKwM--1M)” and try not to soing “Hurrah, hurrah, for the southern rights hurrah”. Try “[The Ghost of Robert E Lee](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-MX0PXDWis)” by Waylon Jennings. Then there are just some “nice” songs like “[Christmas in Dixie](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cenz3cP3rjE)”" by Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/109 "2019-10-14T17:57:24Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The south definitely has it with music. Their is no song equivalent in the north to “Dixie”. Which was so good the Union made a parody of it. Then I take it you’ve never heard… _The Battle Hymn of the Republic_ It’s predecessor, _John Brown’s Body_ _When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again_ _Tenting Tonight_ _Tramp! Tramp! Tramp! (The Boys Are Marching)_ And then of course, there’s my personal favorite, _The Battle Cry of Freedom_. Down with the traitor, up with the stars! That beats the socks of Dixie any day. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/110 "2019-10-14T18:17:34Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I dare you to watch the video to this song “[The Irish Brigade](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ot7amDyqbY)” and not get just a little confederate sympathies. I quickly recognised that tune as being the old Irish song [Rosin the Bow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GivWUFueNLs) with different lyrics. It seems that the real [Irish Brigade](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Brigade_%28Union_Army%29) fought for the Union, and the [song was originally about the Union Irish Brigade](https://thewildgeese.irish/profiles/blogs/the-stories-behind-the-songs-kelly-s-irish-brigade). There were far fewer Confederate Irish, not enough for a brigade, and they seem to have borrowed the Union song and changed the lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/111 "2019-10-14T19:18:05Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Then I take it you’ve never heard… > > _The Battle Hymn of the Republic_ > > It’s predecessor, _John Brown’s Body_ > > _When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again_ > > _Tenting Tonight_ > > _Tramp! Tramp! Tramp! (The Boys Are Marching)_ > > And then of course, there’s my personal favorite, _The Battle Cry of Freedom_. Down with the traitor, up with the stars! That beats the socks of Dixie any day. Those are ok. My favorite of those is Battle Cry of Freedom. But I will take those and go one up with “[Dixieland Delight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkYIrj03fso)” or another “[If heaven Aint Alot Like Dixie](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAwlj9wqFnI)” even another “[Bury Me in Dixie](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-uOs5r7NfQ)”. Even “[Queen of Memphis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoj8cE4QGhw)” by Confederate Railroad. Then songs like “[The Night They Drove Old Dixie down](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKrdbCbAxZ0)” which I’m not sure what side it glorifies. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/112 "2019-10-14T20:11:18Z")
If you’re going to whip out contemporary songs, then all bets are off. Regionalism just isn’t quite what it was 150 years ago, though I’ll grant that parts of the south certainly do like to cling to it more than other parts of the country. Which may further speak to the central issue of this thread: is it really because the south is so much more “interesting” or is it because certain other factors are in play, and those factors aren’t necessarily a positive, when viewed dispassionately. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I grew up in the south myself. I even went to a certain southern military school that’s been around since before the Civil War and may or may not still celebrate the day its student body fought, as mere boys, in a pitched battle against the Union army. But, somehow, I see through all that. Those “boys” were all military age (albeit on the younger side), and if they had really wanted to fight for what they believed in, they could have had their daddy buy them a commission. As it stands, I’d rate them about on par with wealthy chicken hawks who avoided service in Vietnam by joining the reserves. They were the sons of the landed gentry who actually owned slaves, and yet let poorer men do the fighting, sold them on a line they were fighting for their homeland that the Union Army never would have had cause to invade if they hadn’t foolishly seceded over slavery, and then thumped their chests for the rest of their lives about that one battle they fought in where a handful of their buddies got killed. That’s the Confederacy in a nutshell to me. A fine facade, but examined closely, even as an example of flawed protagonists and anti-heroes, it’s not especially unique. You can find flawed men and women everywhere, you can find hypocrites everywhere, and you can find drama everywhere, but I think where you choose to look and who you choose to celebrate can say a lot about you, whether you realize it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/113 "2019-10-14T20:53:27Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Ask the people pushing back on the Confederacy being evil, I think it’s important that we examine what they are defending. You are having the same problems talking about the actual OP as most everyone else in this thread. This is decidedly not about whether one side or the other was evil, more evil, did nasty stuff or was the golden Buddha. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/114 "2019-10-14T21:51:20Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > So sorry. > I’d say the south was and is full of colorful characters. But who can tell what an audience will grasp on to and eat up. > I’m still trying to understand that movie ‘Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter’ See the problem is you didn’t watch [Pride, Prejudice and Zombies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_and_Prejudice_and_Zombies_(film)) first. Amateur. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/115 "2019-10-14T21:53:36Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > If you’re going to whip out contemporary songs, then all bets are off. Regionalism just isn’t quite what it was 150 years ago, though I’ll grant that parts of the south certainly do like to cling to it more than other parts of the country. Which may further speak to the central issue of this thread: is it really because the south is so much more “interesting” or is it because certain other factors are in play, and those factors aren’t necessarily a positive, when viewed dispassionately. > > I mean, don’t get me wrong, I grew up in the south myself. I even went to a certain southern military school that’s been around since before the Civil War and may or may not still celebrate the day its student body fought, as mere boys, in a pitched battle against the Union army. > > But, somehow, I see through all that. Those “boys” were all military age (albeit on the younger side), and if they had really wanted to fight for what they believed in, they could have had their daddy buy them a commission. As it stands, I’d rate them about on par with wealthy chicken hawks who avoided service in Vietnam by joining the reserves. They were the sons of the landed gentry who actually owned slaves, and yet let poorer men do the fighting, sold them on a line they were fighting for their homeland that the Union Army never would have had cause to invade if they hadn’t foolishly seceded over slavery, and then thumped their chests for the rest of their lives about that one battle they fought in where a handful of their buddies got killed. That’s the Confederacy in a nutshell to me. A fine facade, but examined closely, even as an example of flawed protagonists and anti-heroes, it’s not especially unique. You can find flawed men and women everywhere, you can find hypocrites everywhere, and you can find drama everywhere, but I think where you choose to look and who you choose to celebrate can say a lot about you, whether you realize it or not. Yeah, you have it down about the “Lost Cause”. I’m only saying they have some good songs. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/116 "2019-10-15T02:52:37Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > You are having the same problems talking about the actual OP as most everyone else in this thread. This is decidedly not about whether one side or the other was evil, more evil, did nasty stuff or was the golden Buddha. Actually, if you had read the thread since it started out in Café Society, you’d see that you are mistaken. My point and some other posters is that evil is more interesting, it stands to reason that we would then need to establish that the Confederacy was in fact evil. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/117 "2019-10-15T12:25:50Z")
“Dixie,” embraced as it was by the South, appears to have [come from somewhere in Ohio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_(song)). I’m not very knowledgeable about pre-Civil War American music, but minstrel shows provided popular music on both sides of the Mason Dixon line. Blues and Jazz were rooted in the South, especially New Orleans (home of both Louis Armstrong and W. C. Handy) but their popularity exploded all over the country after the turn of the century. The introduction of radio circa 1925 was quite the leveler of regional tastes and favorites, though Northern music of the early 1900s was more informed by Jewish and eastern European influences, like Polka and Vaudeville (although many Northern cities became hubs of Jazz and Blues too), while Southern music had more Black and Irish origins. Both were swell, but the edge goes to the South. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/118 "2019-10-15T12:35:32Z")
Villains are often more fascinating than heroes, so it’s possible. Let’s face it, who was more colorful and fascinating, Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/119 "2019-10-15T15:32:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But I was thinking of SS uniforms. Well yeah, with Hugo Boss himself designing the uniforms, they were going to look good. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643/120 "2019-10-15T15:54:22Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Siding with **Bo** here. The Union had just as many if not more “characters” and such as the traitors did. Popular culture has just fixated on the losers because they were still around and noisy. There is something compelling in the narrative of a failed cause, though. An element of tragedy, in the literary sense, if not the moral sense. People love “Macbeth,” even though Macbeth failed and was the bad guy. The South gives you the failure element and a lot of moral questions to explore. (I am fascinated by the number of otherwise intelligent SDMB posters who struggle with the concept of the OP.) The Union’s obvious great story is Grant, a failure in everything that wasn’t being a soldier but the greatest general in the history of America, who led the most brilliant and audacious campaign in his country’s history, and who was a person of tremendous moral strength, working and succeeding in a military culture that was politicized to an extent barely comprehensible today. It would make an incredible HBO series. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-confederacy-south-more-interesting-than-the-union-north/841643.md?page=7)