# Is the Crimea in the Ukraine really 100% loyal to Russia. Things are never as tidy as all that **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 4, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878 "2014-03-04T23:49:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/1 "2014-03-04T23:49:32Z")
Is the Crimea in the Ukraine really 100% loyal to Russia. Things are never as tidy as all that. I’d like to know what the people there really think. I look forward to your feedback davidmich ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/2 "2014-03-05T00:10:10Z")
[http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/daily\_videos/crimeans-split-over-support-for-new-ukrainian-government/](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/daily_videos/crimeans-split-over-support-for-new-ukrainian-government/) "On the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea, ethnic Tatars are delighted about the new authorities, but the majority ethnic Russians are spoiling for a fight. Many of them would like Crimea to secede from Ukraine altogether. In Crimea, the Tatars were determined to stop a parliamentary debate on secession. Scuffles broke out between the pro-Russian supporters and anti-Russian Tatars." ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/3 "2014-03-05T01:07:03Z")
Crimea is 58% ethnic Russian, 24% Ukrainian, and 12% Tatar. Ethnicity will suggest your political loyalties but not always. First you have to tell us where you heard that it is “100% loyal.” ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/4 "2014-03-05T02:02:48Z")
Crimea is already a self-governing, autonomous region of Ukraine. Most likely, they’d prefer complete independence instead of being yet another province of Russia. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/5 "2014-03-05T02:03:34Z")
Who can really say? There is not exactly good polling data. That said this [NYT bit](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/opinion/crimea-russias-next-afghanistan.html?rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=origin®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article) is interesting albeit only one person’s sayso. > [@](#): > > But these leaders do not speak for the people of Crimea. I am an ethnic Ukrainian (and a native speaker of both Ukrainian and Russian) but I live and work alongside many ethnic Russians. They never asked for a Russian invasion and do not need the “protection” that is being offered. > > The dominant mood here in Crimea – even among local Russian-speaking intellectuals who have been vocal in defense of their linguistic rights and cultural identity – is not joy, but fear. > > The majority of Crimean Russians did not want to see Russian tanks and troops in the streets. They understand that if the occupation continues, it may undermine their livelihood. Crimea is a tourist destination; the incomes and well-being of many of its inhabitants depend on revenues from the peak travel season, when vacationers come to the Black Sea for relaxation. They cannot live on rations from the Russian military. And they know that Crimea could not be economically sustained without the rest of Ukraine, which supplies the region with electricity and water. > > It’s true that Russians in Crimea and in southeastern Ukraine were angered by a clumsy and reckless law removing Russian as one of the two national languages of Ukraine, a law passed during the post-revolutionary fever that followed the overthrow of President Viktor F. Yanukovych. But the interim government in Kiev has already rescinded the law (though the acting president has yet to sign it). So what is it that Crimean Russians need “protection” from? … I’d guess the Tatars and the ethnic Ukrainians are pretty close to 100% not loyal to Russia and that a significant minority of the ethnic Russians are as presented in that NYT bit (perhaps not the majority as the author states). I would _suspect_ that a free and internationally supervised election offereing the option of continued semi-autonomous intergration with the rest of Ukraine vs seccession would see a narrow majority vote for the former rather than the latter, with enough ethnic Rusians joining the Tatar and Ukrainian blocs to put continued integration over … but there is little hope that such a free and clean of interference vote will ever be allowed to occur. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2014, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/6 "2014-03-05T10:19:47Z")
It was Russian from Catherine the Great 'til WW2, so I guess the ties are pretty strong. Ukraine is like one of those variously flavoured segment pizzas. mmmmm. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/7 "2014-03-06T04:07:18Z")
And how long were various African regions under British rule? South Africa for over a hundred years. And Ireland for longer. I guess the ties must be pretty strong in both those places too! Amazingly enough we in the states do not see a diversity of culture and ethnicity unable to stand. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/8 "2014-03-06T04:56:37Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And how long were various African regions under British rule? South Africa for over a hundred years. And Ireland for longer. I guess the ties must be pretty strong in both those places too! > > Amazingly enough we in the states do not see a diversity of culture and ethnicity unable to stand. The various African regions were never ethnically British. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/9 "2014-03-06T04:59:41Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > And how long were various African regions under British rule? South Africa for over a hundred years. And Ireland for longer. I guess the ties must be pretty strong in both those places too! The majority of Sub-Saharan countries had independence 1960-1968. North Africa a bit earlier, and some exceptions like Ethiopia in 1944 (also Italian, but they didn’t have much say at the time). Colonization was the late 19th century, 1860+ for most of them. 1795 for parts of South Africa, which I’ll guess is the longest, till 1910, or 1961 if you’re being a tad pedantic. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/10 "2014-03-06T12:57:41Z")
**thelurkinghorror** , thank you for the answer even though it was more of a rhetorical question. **Moiser** , yes, and so? The issue is how “loyal” Crimea is to Russia. One argument is that they are loyal because they are all ethnic Russians. That is first off simply not true. It is not even a vast majority. A fairly narrow majority are and many are ethnically Ukrainian or Tatar. Secondly to believe that shared ethnicity means loyalty to the country of ethnic hertage is not based on any reality. Are Mexican-Americans, or Cuban-Americans, or Canadian-Americans, more loyal to Mexico or Cuba or Canada than to America? If Cuba occupied part of Miami that was highly concentrated Cuban-American would Cuban-Americans be presumed to be loyal to and supportive of Cuba and wanting seccession from the United States? The next argument was that having been controlled by Russia for a long time would mean strong ties. That is a silly argument as is shown by the fact that many other regions have been controlled by countries without loyalty being the result, sometimes quite the opposite in fact. The implication was also made that having diversity (different flavored pizza segements) meant no shared identity or unity. The nature of the United States as an easy example is the counterweight to that argument. I don’t know if the NYT bit that claims a majority of Crimean ethnic Russians are against Russia coming in as Russia has is true or if most of them want seccession. But I do know that presuming the answer based on shared ethnicity or based on having been controlled by Russia for many years historically is not justified. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/11 "2014-03-06T14:00:33Z")
The OP will have an answer March 16. Should be interesting to see how the people vote. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/crimea-sets-referendum-on-joining-russia/2014/03/06/d06d8a46-a520-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/crimea-sets-referendum-on-joining-russia/2014/03/06/d06d8a46-a520-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html) > [@](#): > > SEVASTOPOL, Ukraine — Lawmakers in Ukraine’s Crimea region voted Thursday to hold a referendum on March 16 to decide whether Crimea should become part of Russia, according to the Associated Press. > > The autonomous region’s 100-member parliament voted 78 to 0, with eight abstentions, in favor of holding the referendum, which would also give Crimean voters the option of remaining part of Ukraine, but with enhanced local powers, AP reported. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/12 "2014-03-06T14:06:16Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The OP will have an answer March 16. Should be interesting to see how the people vote. > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/crimea-sets-referendum-on-joining-russia/2014/03/06/d06d8a46-a520-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/crimea-sets-referendum-on-joining-russia/2014/03/06/d06d8a46-a520-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html) I am sure a referendum under Russian guns will provide a valid answer. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/13 "2014-03-06T15:55:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am sure a referendum under Russian guns will provide a valid answer. The should cast their votes under the guns of the government rightfully appointed by the leaders of a violent fascist coup, like we do in the west. > [@DSeid](#): > > Who can really say? There is not exactly good polling data. That said this [NYT bit](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/04/opinion/crimea-russias-next-afghanistan.html?rref=opinion&module=Ribbon&version=origin®ion=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&pgtype=article) is interesting albeit only one person’s sayso. Carl Bernstein, the one from Woodward and Bernstein who wasn’t Woodward, wrote that the NYT, CBS and Time-Life were the CIA’s main voices in the media. Consider the likelihood that this story is the Kuwaiti-incubator-story of our time. > [@DSeid](#): > > And how long were various African regions under British rule? South Africa for over a hundred years. And Ireland for longer. I guess the ties must be pretty strong in both those places too! > > Amazingly enough we in the states do not see a diversity of culture and ethnicity unable to stand. With South Africa it depends on whether you mean Cape Colony or the boer-dominated Union of South Africa. The ties were quite strong, but South Africa severed their’s with the adoption of Apartheid in 1948, and the Rhodesians with their UDI. Britain wasn’t racist enough for them, I suppose. The black colonies had less deep ties. With Ireland the ties were too deep, which is why we’re still saddled with Northern Ireland to this day, Northern Ireland seeming quite a reasonable analogue for the Crimea in the Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/14 "2014-03-07T07:49:35Z")
Thank you all very much. Very helpful. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![WilyQuixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WilyQuixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WilyQuixote)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/15 "2014-03-07T14:24:40Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > The ties were quite strong, but South Africa severed their’s with the adoption of Apartheid in 1948, Not quite correct. From 1910-1961, South Africa was a self-governing dominion of the British Empire. Only in 1961 did South Africa become an independent republic. (for the white citizens at least - blacks got the same shit as before.) ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/16 "2014-03-17T13:50:27Z")
> **[97 percent back Russia in final Crimea vote count](https://nypost.com/2014/03/17/97-percent-back-russia-in-final-crimea-vote-count/)** > > MOSCOW – Final results of the referendum in Crimea show that 97 percent of voters have supported leaving Ukraine to join Russia, the head of the referendum election commission said Monday. Mikhail … davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/17 "2014-03-17T14:54:41Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > [97 percent back Russia in final Crimea vote count](http://nypost.com/2014/03/17/97-percent-back-russia-in-final-crimea-vote-count/) And how much faith do you have that the published results represent the actual will of the people who live in Crimea? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/18 "2014-03-17T20:01:18Z")
Has anyone seen any reports of massive vote fraud in the election? In terms of loyalty, another type of loyalty hasn’t been mentioned–a huge proportion of the population is loyal to their pocket book–and Russians have a significantly higher standard of living than Ukrainians. GDP per capita Russia: $14,037 Ukraine: $3,867 So I expect a lot of Crimeans want to join with Russia for economic reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/19 "2014-03-17T21:04:36Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Has anyone seen any reports of massive vote fraud in the election? You mean besides the Russian troops that took over the country and called for the vote? ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-crimea-in-the-ukraine-really-100-loyal-to-russia-things-are-never-as-tidy-as-all-that/682878/20 "2014-03-17T21:43:55Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Has anyone seen any reports of massive vote fraud in the election? Flawed questions in the referendum ballots that do not allow for the ‘leave everything as is option’. Russian troops on the ground A referendum organised in just two weeks People with Russian passports being allowed to vote A team of ‘international observers’ consisting of members of European fascist members. Yup. It’s a fraud all right Thought I’d clarify: judging by the reports of journalists on the ground, it seems pretty clear that Crimeans are in favour of becoming part of Russia. That doesn’t make the referendum any less fraudulent though.