# Is the current historical perception of LBJ inaccurate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068 "2008-05-12T18:50:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/21 "2008-05-12T20:34:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] In Johnson’s case, his greatest failing is inextricably linked to the success or failure of his domestic policies. [/quote] I can think of 50,000 people that would disagree with you, but they can’t say anything about it. > [@](#): > > The Vietnam War reduced his ability to fund the Great Society and the War on Poverty. And whose fault is that? The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and 500,000+ troop levels happened long after November 1963. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/22 "2008-05-12T20:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Yeah, well, we also learned along the way exactly what works and what doesn’t - and a lot of what Johnson proposed simply did not work. [/quote] What - he had some goofs mixed in with his successes? Well, then! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/23 "2008-05-12T21:06:04Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] And whose fault is that? The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and 500,000+ troop levels happened long after November 1963. [/QUOTE] I never said it wasn’t Johnson’s fault. It was. He didn’t have to escalate troop levels beyond Kennedy’s commitment. And his mistake, on top of everything else, scuttled the War on Poverty’s chances of really succeeding. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/24 "2008-05-12T21:08:08Z")
All of this only proves that Lyndon Johnson was a fascinating, complex political figure who will be judged by the defining event of his presidency. IMHO, any WW2 era politician, Johnson, Kennedy, Nixon, Rockefeller, Goldwater, Symington, you name it, would have sent troops into Vietnam and found himself in a big mess. Some would have cut their losses and gotten out, others would have escalated. Probably someone would have considered going nuclear at some point. But ultimately, it happened on LBJ’s watch, and he’s the one who has to answer for it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/25 "2008-05-12T21:10:50Z")
I agree with those who say that Vietnam defeated him. He was too trusting of McNamara, especially. There’s my favorite scene in a docudrama where the generals are giving Johnson and his key advisors a slide show, hoping to talk him into escalating the bombing. One of the slides showed an old woman on a bicycle transporting arms through the jungle ostensibly to Viet Cong fighters. The more people around the table talked, the more restless Johnson became. Eventually, they showed him a slide of a truck facility in Hanoi that they wanted to bomb. “We could effectively cripple their distribution infrastructure by destroying their ability to build trucks.” Johnson snapped and began screaming at them. “Trucks? They don’t need trucks! They got old women on fuckin’ bicycles haulin’ their stuff around! What am I supposed to do, start bombing old women!?” ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/26 "2008-05-12T22:54:36Z")
I really enjoy when they play Johnson’s Whitehouse tapes on NPR and the like. Irregardless of his legacy, he was a pretty entertaining guy to listen to, if for no other reason then the amusement of hearing the leader of the free world curse every other word. One clip had him haggling with his barber over the price of a haircut. One of the tragedies of Watergate that we didn’t get a similar record from presidents after Nixon. > [@](#): > > I agree with those who say that Vietnam defeated him. He was too trusting of McNamara, especially. One of the Whitehouse tapes has someone (assume it was McNamara, but it was years ago I heard it, so I might be wrong) trying to talk Johnson into escalation. It’s obvious that he’s uneasy with the idea, and he rather chillingly predicts a fairly accurate guess of what will go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/27 "2008-05-12T22:57:16Z")
Couldn’t google up the clip I mention, but here’s a transcript of a similar bit from one of LBJ’s tapes: > [@](#): > > PRESIDENT JOHNSON: I’ll tell you, the more that I stayed awake last night thinking of this thing, the more I think of it, I don’t know what in the hell–it looks like to me we’re getting into another Korea. It just worries the hell out of me. I don’t see what we can ever hope to get out of with once we’re committed. I believe the Chinese Communists are coming in to it. I don’t think that we can fight ‘em ten thousand miles away from home and ever get anywhere in that area. I don’t think it’s worth fighting for, and I don’t think we can get out, and it’s just the biggest damn mess that I ever saw. > > McGEORGE BUNDY: It’s an awful mess. > > PRESIDENT JOHNSON: And we’ve just got to think about it. I was looking at this sergeant of mine this morning–got six little old kids over there–and he’s getting out my things and bringing me in my night reading, and all that kind of stuff, and I just thought if I’d ordered all those kids in there and what in hell am I ordering them out there for. What the hell is Vietnam worth to me? What is Laos worth to me? What is it worth to this country? We’ve got a treaty but, hell, everybody else has got a treaty out there, and they’re not doing anything about it. Now, of course, if you start running from the Communists, they may just chase you right into your own kitchen. > > McGEORGE BUNDY: That’s the trouble. And that is what the rest of the-- about half of the world is going to think if anything comes apart on us. That’s the dilemma. > > PRESIDENT JOHNSON: But everybody I talk to that’s got any sense and the other, just says, oh, God, please give this thought. Of course, I was reading Mansfield’s stuff this morning, and it’s just Milquetoast as it can be, it’s not fine at all, but this is a terrible thing we’re getting ready to do. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/28 "2008-05-13T01:37:00Z")
Johnson was just about the most corrupt president we ever had. His whol career reeked of corruption-from his firts senate win, to his last election. Johnson knew how to extort money from lobbyists, and made a ton of cash. He was personally gross and crude, and like to embarass his staff-he once delivered command while sitting on the toilet. As for Vietnam, his advisors told him the risks-but he just blundered in to it, and wound up killing 60,000 Americans. An absolute disaster! ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/29 "2008-05-13T01:44:54Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] Take away Vietnam? You can’t. That’s what defined him. It saddled him while he was in office and it chased him out of office, and it ultimately ended up killing 10 times more Americans than the “Worst President Ever” flavor of the month George W. Bush. That’s like saying that without Little Bighorn Custer was a great general, or without My Lai William Calley was a great officer. And the Great Society? Please. The only thing good that came out of that was the civil rights laws, and they were coming anyway, one way or another. The rest of it saddled us with huge, bloated social programs that have been at best moderately successful, but at a huge cost. Johnson was a horrible President. There is no way he’ll ever look better than Truman or Reagan. [/QUOTE] I have to agree. The Great Society was basically vote-buying with massive social programs. Johnson was a political thief. He was damn good at it, and he was popular because he stole enough to pass it around and make everybody happy. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/30 "2008-05-13T01:58:58Z")
[QUOTE=Clothahump] Johnson was a political thief. He was damn good at it, and he was popular because he stole enough to pass it around and make everybody happy. [/QUOTE] If by this you’re referring to the Great Society program, from whom exactly would you say he was stealing? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/31 "2008-05-13T02:39:40Z")
[QUOTE=astro] Based on most articles I’ve read about LBJ I always had perception of him as a sort of crass, boorish oaf who pulled dogs ears and whipped out his willy in cabinet meetings [/QUOTE] I have heard of the dog thing before, but did he really ship out his cock in a cabinet meeting? More than once? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/32 "2008-05-13T04:41:20Z")
I think **astro** is confusing it with the well-authenticated anecdote of him lifting his shirt and showing a[scar](http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/Vietimages/Cartoons/levine.htm) from his gall bladder op to the press. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/33 "2008-05-13T05:00:34Z")
[QUOTE=Askance] I think **astro** is confusing it with the well-authenticated anecdote of him lifting his shirt and showing a[scar](http://www.wellesley.edu/Polisci/wj/Vietimages/Cartoons/levine.htm) from his gall bladder op to the press. [/QUOTE] [Not really.](http://www.badattitudes.com/Organ.html) > [@](#): > > “During a private conversation with some reporters who pressed him to explain why we were in Vietnam, Johnson lost his patience. According to Arthur Goldberg, LBJ unzipped his fly, drew out his substantial organ and declared, ‘This is why!’” ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/34 "2008-05-13T05:27:55Z")
I remember reading once that as a young lad – maybe late teens – he hitchhiked to the West Coast just to see it, then hitchhiked back again. I thought that was a pretty neat thing for a guy to do back then. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/35 "2008-05-13T05:40:58Z")
> [@](#): > > **Clothahump** : …he was popular because he stole enough to pass it around and make everybody happy. How _dare_ he make everybody happy! His crudeness may be revered in much the way that Ben Franklin’s mischief is now. And dammit, he deserves credit for the Civil Rights Act. You can’t just say that it was coming anyway. People had to fight _hard_ for it when it was passed and they shouldn’t have had to wait in the first place. A person with less finesse wouldn’t have been able to broker the deal. And we made _important_ changes to the system. (Wait until you hit retirement.) There was plenty of responsibility for the war. McNamara was on Kennedy’s Cabinet too. Even Eisenhower had sent forces in. I’m not excusing Johnson at all. I voted for him. Now the thought of the war makes my flesh crawl. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/36 "2008-05-13T05:58:52Z")
I give Johnson credit for actually doing something about Civil Rights. Most people were content to say that things were going to get better someday. It was Johnson who pushed to get something real done now. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/37 "2008-05-13T06:45:02Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] There’s my favorite scene in a docudrama where the generals are giving Johnson and his key advisors a slide show, hoping to talk him into escalating the bombing. One of the slides showed an old woman on a bicycle transporting arms through the jungle ostensibly to Viet Cong fighters. The more people around the table talked, the more restless Johnson became. [/quote] [_Path to War_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0218505/), with Michael Gambon as Johnson and Alec Baldwin as McNamara. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/38 "2008-05-13T09:58:02Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] [_Path to War_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0218505/), with Michael Gambon as Johnson and Alec Baldwin as McNamara. [/QUOTE] Yes, thank you! That’s the one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/39 "2008-05-13T13:24:32Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Johnson was just about the most corrupt president we ever had. His whol career reeked of corruption-from his firts senate win, to his last election. Johnson knew how to extort money from lobbyists, and made a ton of cash. [/QUOTE] Agreed and affirmed. But you have to make allowances – Johnson was an effing **saint** by standards of Texas politics at the time. (An interesting take on Johnson in that context can be found in [_Made in Texas: George W. Bush and the Southern Takeover of American Politics,_](http://www.amazon.com/Made-Texas-Southern-Takeover-American/dp/0465041213) by Michael Lind.) ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068/40 "2008-05-13T13:58:31Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Agreed and affirmed. But you have to make allowances – Johnson was an effing **saint** by standards of Texas politics at the time. [/QUOTE] You must be joking. Replace the “Johnson” with “Bush” and he gets no forgiveness from you. Oh, that’s right, Bush isn’t a populist Democrat. You can forgive a lot of sins when it’s someone you like that commits them, can’t you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-current-historical-perception-of-lbj-inaccurate/449068.md?page=3)