# Is the Darwin Fish an atheist badge? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857 "2011-06-17T16:44:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/21 "2011-06-17T20:51:01Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > The Darwin fish has always kind of bugged me, because it seems like such a non-sequitor. I mean, it started with the basic fish symbol, which has been used in Christianity since the earliest days. It’s supposed to symbolize Jesus specifically or Chrisitianity in general. It’s not an anti-evolution statement; the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and mainline Protestant churches all accept evolution. > > So why the attempt to mock this symbol by connecting it to Darwinism? It’s a pretty nonsensical retort. Because the Christians started sticking fish symbols and anti-evolution slogans on their cars first. And regardless of what the official church position is, most American Christians don’t accept evolution. > [@Simplicio](#): > > Your saying that religious people are hypocrites because why they preach religion and morality, in your head they respond to your hypothetical Darwin Fish by vandalism? Certainly they have a reputation for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/22 "2011-06-17T21:01:58Z")
FWIW, the symbol was oriiginally created and marketed by a group called Atheists United. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/23 "2011-06-17T21:11:22Z")
The fish on my truck is a fat one that says “Buddha.” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/24 "2011-06-17T21:17:10Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > And the counter-counter symbol, which shows a fish with the word “TRUTH” etched on its side eating a smaller fish which says “DARWIN”, are displayed by religious people who undoubtedly think that Evolution is incompatible with Christianity. Which I find funny, because I see the big fish eating the smaller one as an example of natural selection, the survival of the fittest. I doubt that’s the point they intend. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/25 "2011-06-18T00:40:02Z")
It’s an interesting question. I’ve always thought of it as a sort of light-hearted joke–they have the Jesus fish and we have the early Lungfish With Legs fish. I suppose most people do interpret it as the OP says, but I can’t agree with that interpretation. There must be significant numbers of Christians out there who aren’t Biblical literalists–Catholics for a few. At least, I know that their official doctrine does not reject evolution, at least as far as the basic idea of species gradually becoming other species, as can be inferred from the fossil record. I imagine most mainstream Protestant sects are similar. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/26 "2011-06-18T01:33:15Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > There must be significant numbers of Christians out there who aren’t Biblical literalists–Catholics for a few. Agreed, but would those people go so far as to have a Darwin Fish? I can’t see it. (I’m waiting for a Doper to chime in and say, “You know what? I’m one of those people!”) ---
**Author:** ![SandyHook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dec6dc/32.png) [@SandyHook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SandyHook)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/27 "2011-06-18T01:37:49Z")
> [@ReticulatingSplines](#): > > It seems that way to me. Either the Darwin Fish or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I have the FSM on the back of my truck. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/28 "2011-06-18T01:43:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because the Christians started sticking fish symbols and anti-evolution slogans on their cars first. And regardless of what the official church position is, most American Christians don’t accept evolution. But the majority of American _Catholics_ do, as well as a tiny (51%) majority of American Mainline Protestants, at least according to this [Pew poll](http://pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Religious-Differences-on-the-Question-of-Evolution.aspx). Since I am Jewish, and live in a very liberal community, I don’t think of evolution and religion as incompatible, so I never specifically associate the Darwin fish with atheism, although it clearly is opposed to _creationism_. But as the poll shows, there are plenty of religious people who are not creationists. ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/29 "2011-06-18T01:45:20Z")
Here’s my favorite fish: [www.aliencarfish.com](http://www.aliencarfish.com) That’s some funny right there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/30 "2011-06-18T04:16:18Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Since I am Jewish, and live in a very liberal community, I don’t think of evolution and religion as incompatible, so I never specifically associate the Darwin fish with atheism, although it clearly is opposed to _creationism_. But as the poll shows, there are plenty of religious people who are not creationists. But creationism is a wholly religious doctrine. Any anti-creationism symbols or slogans are going to by nature be slams against the religious because that’s what the creationists _are_. Religion is the whole motive for their disbelief; not facts, not logic, just religion. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/31 "2011-06-18T04:23:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Certainly they have a reputation for doing so. Do they really? Do they specifically have a reputation of vandalizing cars becuase they have Darwin Fish on them? Cite it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/32 "2011-06-18T04:40:12Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Do they really? Do they specifically have a reputation of vandalizing cars becuase they have Darwin Fish on them? Cite it. How in the world would someone cite something like that? Do you think I keep around notarized transcripts of every atheist I talk to? I did find two threads here on the SDMB with people complaining that it happened to them; [1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=160418&highlight=darwin+fish+vandal*), [2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114287). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/33 "2011-06-18T04:58:57Z")
I t depends on where you live. There are parts of the South and the rural North where people seriously think you’re commiting some kind of crime or disturbance of the peace by putting stuff like that on your car, and that they’re justified. To them it’s like seeing a swastika or something. They perceive it as that inflammatory. The vast majority of Christians, even fundies, aren’t going to do anything, but there are always a few real zealots around. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/34 "2011-06-18T05:31:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > How in the world would someone cite something like that? Do you think I keep around notarized transcripts of every atheist I talk to? > > I did find two threads here on the SDMB with people complaining that it happened to them; [1](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=160418&highlight=darwin+fish+vandal*), [2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114287). I knew I’d posted about it before, so here’s one more for ya: [What bumper stickers have you had stolen?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=542716) Three posters in that thread had Darwin fish stolen, and there are other stories about pro-atheism stickers or signs being stolen or vandalized. ---
**Author:** ![ramel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb8c5e/32.png) [@ramel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ramel)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/35 "2011-06-18T06:15:00Z")
Why would it be? The majority of religious people believe in evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/36 "2011-06-18T06:17:58Z")
It’s a holy mackerel. ---
**Author:** ![magic\_moon\_glow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@magic\_moon\_glow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magic_moon_glow)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/37 "2011-06-18T12:20:12Z")
Not all bumper stickers are provocative. Some strike a humorous cord and everyone who sees them laughs. But even there, most people wont put a sticker on their car. To many modern auto drivers, their car IS THEIR FACE to the world. Its bad enough when other motorists shake a fist at them because of a driving error. To risk scorn because of their political or social statement is terrifying to them. It takes a special kind of person to put really provocative stickers on their car. They are the same kind of folks who, in Holland during the war, sewed stars of david on their clothes so the nazis couldn’t tell who was a real jew. In Butte Montana, bumper sticker folks were the ones who put hanukkah candles in their house windows so the KKK could figure out where to throw rocks. In Colorado Springs, we put pink triangles on our cars so the christian did not know which ones belong to real queers. It didn’t cause the bigots to hate them less, they just scorned us all. But for the gay folks in our community, it made a tremendous difference. Knowing that not everyone would attack them made it much easier for them. Once enough people had stepped forward to support civil rights for gay people, societies attitudes began to change. Where ever the dominant power structure stomps on the down trodden, it’s the bumper sticker people who finally stand up and say “that’s enough”. If you are not that courageous or motivated, stick with the Coexist image,( [http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/Coexist.html](http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/Coexist.html) ) or “[he who laughs, lasts](http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/TLS-stickers-ss3.html#564)”. And when you see a driver brave enough to flash their social or political principles across the surface of their car, give them a quick Thumps Up. But be carefull! Someone might be watching. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/38 "2011-06-18T13:59:00Z")
I think it’s both pro-evolution and anti-Christianity. Being based on a fish is certainly proof it’s a thumb in the eye of Christians. I think that didn’t “make it into one”, rather, it must have been the intention from the start. It’s not as though these things already appear everywhere and we started assigning significance. I think it would be completely excellent, though, if we taught children that the whole fish symbol thing means “carpe diem”, which translates as “god is a fish”. To add insight to the picture, as it were. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/39 "2011-06-18T15:11:10Z")
It’s not anti-christian, it’s anti-Jesus-fish. It’s just a mockery of those who feel the need to announce their religious beliefs on a bumper sticker. Yeah I know, in it’s mockery it ends up being exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/40 "2011-06-18T19:29:40Z")
> [@Sal\_Ammoniac](#): > > Agreed, but would those people go so far as to have a Darwin Fish? I can’t see it. (I’m waiting for a Doper to chime in and say, “You know what? I’m one of those people!”) I know someone who is a practicing Catholic and has a Darwin fish, but she also happens to be a biologist and a Spaniard living in Spain who picked up the sticker during her honeymoon. Bumper stickers are a lot less common here than in the US, generally the only stickers you see on people’s cars are the ones linked to mechanical checkups on the inside of the windshield. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857.md?page=3)