# Is the Darwin Fish an atheist badge? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 17, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857 "2011-06-17T16:44:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/41 "2011-06-18T19:34:08Z")
> [@Sal\_Ammoniac](#): > > Agreed, but would those people go so far as to have a Darwin Fish? I can’t see it. (I’m waiting for a Doper to chime in and say, “You know what? I’m one of those people!”) My mom wants to get a darwin fish with Jesus in it to signify that you can be both a christian and intelligent. I dunno if that’s relevant though. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/42 "2011-06-18T19:44:01Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > It’s not anti-christian, it’s anti-Jesus-fish. It’s just a mockery of those who feel the need to announce their religious beliefs on a bumper sticker. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > My mom wants to get a darwin fish with Jesus in it to signify that you can be both a christian and intelligent. There’s a woman in my town who has both an original Jesus fish and a Darwin-phibian on her car. I’ve never seen them actually combined, but there are certainly a few others besides **Stickler** ’s mom who would appreciate the symbolism. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/43 "2011-06-18T20:29:18Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > I knew I’d posted about it before, so here’s one more for ya: [What bumper stickers have you had stolen?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=542716) Three posters in that thread had Darwin fish stolen, and there are other stories about pro-atheism stickers or signs being stolen or vandalized. I used to have a license plate frame that said “My boss is a Jewish carpenter.” One day I found that somebody had ripped it off my car and smashed it into pieces. Make of that what you wish. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/44 "2011-06-18T20:57:43Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > There’s a woman in my town who has both an original Jesus fish and a Darwin-phibian on her car. I’ve never seen them actually combined, but there are certainly a few others besides **Stickler** ’s mom who would appreciate the symbolism. Here’s one that combines the two. NSFW [Fishes](http://meangene.com/darwin/procreat.gif) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/45 "2011-06-18T21:00:38Z")
I don’t think that’s the symbolism they’re looking for. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/46 "2011-06-18T21:23:29Z")
I had one for years - I thought specifically that it was saying I was both Christian and scienitfically minded. Now I’m more of a FSM person, but I do still pattern many of my choices after the Golden Rule and other moral teaching sattributed to Jesus of Nazareth. The trouble with modern American Christianity is that it no longer necessarily traces its beliefs to his teachings. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/47 "2011-06-18T23:49:45Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > It’s not anti-christian, it’s anti-Jesus-fish. It’s just a mockery of those who feel the need to announce their religious beliefs on a bumper sticker. > > Yeah I know, in it’s mockery it ends up being exactly the same thing. Evolution isn’t a religious belief. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/48 "2011-06-19T06:11:20Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It’s a holy mackerel. see Post #12 . ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/49 "2011-06-19T20:29:33Z")
I don’t think it is necessarily a badge of athiesm. I had one on an old car of mine. It was basically saying (in my mind) that I am evolutionary-minded. I believe in God. I don’t think the concepts are opposite polarities - though I know many people do. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/50 "2011-06-19T22:40:28Z")
Am I the only one who wants to muff punch one of those cars in the vag? I’ve been an atheist my whole life, and was raised in an irreligious house, but aren’t those strident people the worst? At least with those Jesus fish wine people you can fake it and chuckle to yourself, but my people are constantly trying to sniff out some kind of deeper truth. That’s why I hate them. Yeah, it’s an atheist badge, and it says, “Hey, I’m a born, bred, and cornholed Texan who strayed from my flock, but look at my … [insert cool thing].” ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/51 "2011-06-19T22:44:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think the play on the Jesus fish has made it into one. Concur. Although it could have went the other way if it was made by Christians, the fact that atheists use it makes it seem like a perversion of the original symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/52 "2011-06-20T04:09:11Z")
> [@Sal\_Ammoniac](#): > > Agreed, but would those people go so far as to have a Darwin Fish? I can’t see it. (I’m waiting for a Doper to chime in and say, “You know what? I’m one of those people!”) I don’t own a Darwin Fish decal (or a car, for that matter), but I think it would be hilarious. Though I’m even more partial to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. In case anyone really wants to be sure of my exact beliefs, I’ll put a magen david next to the FSM/Darwin Fish. They can make of that what they wish. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/53 "2011-06-20T05:32:23Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > I prefer the FSM myself. > > [http://evolvefish.com/fish/emblems.html](http://evolvefish.com/fish/emblems.html) \<---- for a whole shiteload of alt.fish emblems, of varying oddity and relevance to religion or christianity. I keep waiting for one where the fish has been turned onto its tail and made part of a shiela-na-gig. I’d buy one of those. I wouldn’t put it on my car, but I’d buy it. Oh, and the folks at the link above sell replacement feet in case your fish has been vandalized. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because the Christians started sticking fish symbols and anti-evolution slogans on their cars first. And regardless of what the official church position is, most American Christians don’t accept evolution. > > Certainly they have a reputation for doing so. I remember a time before the secret Jesus fish car ornament. At least I had been told in Sunday school that the symbol was a secret one, having been drawn in the dirt and then wiped back out when a Christian met someone who might be another Christian. Because it was so dangerous to be Christian, back then. Maybe for others, the symbol had less of an air of courting martyrdom at the hands of the evil masses. But having always heard the story being told in hushed dread, seeing those things pop up on cars caused my eyes to roll. Look at my secret symbol. If the bad people surrounding us ever figure it out, we’re doooomed. The first Darwin fishes I saw didn’t have Darwin written in them, just as the first Jesus fish I saw had no writing. They just had the feet, which might be overlooked if you didn’t look closely. It made me smile. It was such a small, quiet rebuttal. Things have gotten gaudy since then. I’m perfectly willing to hear that the chronology was different in other areas, but that’s the sequence I saw. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/54 "2011-06-20T05:51:46Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > It’s not anti-christian, it’s anti-Jesus-fish. It’s just a mockery of those who feel the need to announce their religious beliefs on a bumper sticker. > > Yeah I know, in it’s mockery it ends up being exactly the same thing. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Evolution isn’t a religious belief. And that’s the joke/mockery. “You got a fish symbol proclaiming your faith? Hey, I got a fish symbol too. Of course it supports a scientific principle rather than a religious belief, but whaddya expect from an atheist?” And then, since _ **denial** _ of evolution _ **is** _ a religious belief, we get the “my fish is better than your fish” escalation. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/55 "2011-06-20T06:16:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Evolution isn’t a religious belief. So? If bragging about your religious belief is bad, why isn’t bragging about your lack thereof also bad? And if religious people trying to convert you is bad, why doesn’t it also work the other direction? Because if the argument is that you are right but they are wrong, then you will never achieve your goal of getting them to shut-up, as they believe the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/56 "2011-06-20T08:01:29Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > The Darwin fish has always kind of bugged me, because it seems like such a non-sequitor. I mean, it started with the basic fish symbol, which has been used in Christianity since the earliest days. It’s supposed to symbolize Jesus specifically or Chrisitianity in general. It’s not an anti-evolution statement; the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and mainline Protestant churches all accept evolution. > > So why the attempt to mock this symbol by connecting it to Darwinism? It’s a pretty nonsensical retort. My experience may be atypical and I don’t live in the same country as you, but every person I know with the fish symbol on their car is a creationist. Many sub-cultural symbols: 1/ have no \*necessary \* connection to a particular sub-culture only; 2/ \*could \*be connected to some wider group; 3/ may even have historically been connected to some wider group, but nonetheless at some particular place or time, 4/ are connected near-universally, in practice, to one particular sub-culture alone. ---
**Author:** ![suetonius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@suetonius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suetonius)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/57 "2011-06-28T19:03:11Z")
The Christian fish sign (Ichthyus) is displayed as a symbol of solidarity with other Christians while the Darwin fish is intended as an insult to Christians. Rather sad really because the insult is lost on Christians, the vast majority of whom accept Darwin’s theory of evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/58 "2011-06-28T19:19:01Z")
> [@magic\_moon\_glow](#): > > They are the same kind of folks who, in Holland during the war, sewed stars of > david on their clothes so the nazis couldn’t tell who was a real jew. That never happened. (Not to mention the original story was about DENMARK) And I like the idea of having both, (even though I’m no longer a practicing Catholic). Just to see people’s reactions. Around here though most bumper stickers are sports related (Steelers, Penguins, etc) ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/59 "2011-06-28T19:21:16Z")
When I was a teenager I had a fish bumper sticker on my car, but it wasn’t the style that later became popular and now ubiquitous. It was more angled, like the body of the fish was not rounded but a stretched out diamond shape. There was also a little cross angled up out of the mouth of the fish like a fishhook. I thought it was nicely obscure enough to have meaning to some people but not to most. (I thought myself pretty clever back then). I might still put something like that on my car. But the modern fish decal that everyone has carries too much baggage now, as evidenced in this thread. I don’t want to perpetuate the fallacy that all Christians are creationists, even if the reverse is true. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857/60 "2011-06-28T20:07:25Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > It used to be that the fish symbol was filled with Greek letters spelling out ichthyus, meaning fish, but also a Greek acrostic. The letters could also stand for Jesus Christ, God’s son savior. OK, not a great acrostic, but still interesting. The fish as a symbol for Christianity is ancient, and may predate the use of the Cross as a symbol for Christians. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-darwin-fish-an-atheist-badge/585857.md?page=4)