# Is the Democrats identity politics paradigm helping or hurting in the age of Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 11, 2017, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673 "2017-06-11T05:53:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/41 "2017-06-12T21:16:57Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > I was thinking this thread would get into some of the speeches Trump has made concerning the working class recently - it strikes at the heart of the topic of this thread. Tell you what - why don’t you provide us with an example of a recent speech by Donald Trump concerning the working class that you think is factually correct in its assessment of the problem and the solution. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/42 "2017-06-12T21:51:10Z")
Is the question: Should the Democrats do less to advocate for minorities? Or: Should the Democrats do more to advocate for the white working class? These need not have the same answer. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/43 "2017-06-12T21:59:08Z")
They should do more to advocate for the working class, period. While making clear that everybody should benefit from that. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/44 "2017-06-12T22:06:58Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Suddenly I’m reminded why I lurk much more than post. > > I often hear various members of this board lament the fact that it may be turning into an echo chamber, that there are not enough diverse views. So, I thought, perhaps I could contribute something; I believe my views are nothing if not diverse. I was raised in an upper middle class highly educated household but have spent the last 17 years of my life in blue collar, working class jobs. It took about ten years of experiencing what the “working class” (as opposed to the professional class) experience in order to understand why we(I am fully working class by now) think and feel what we think and feel. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. > > But the line of questioning above is not really where I was looking to go. I was thinking this thread would get into some of the speeches Trump has made concerning the working class recently - it strikes at the heart of the topic of this thread. Unfortunately there seems little interest in that type of discussion. I don’t know what you’re complaining about. I just asked you a simple question. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/45 "2017-06-12T22:19:42Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > They should do more to advocate for the working class, period. While making clear that everybody should benefit from that. Sure, but are you suggesting they should drop issues like LGBT discrimination or racial bias in policing, because those are “minority issues” not “working class issues”? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/46 "2017-06-12T22:21:20Z")
> [@furt](#): > > "And by ‘get along,’ we mean give some of them preferences and set asides based on historical grievances, and denounce as a bigot anyone who objects. > > Also, by ‘get along’, we mean continuing to keep immigration at a much higher levels than the historical norm, even if that means depressing wages for low-skill workers, and denounce as a bigot anyone who objects. > > Also, by ‘get along’, we mean continuing to support the rapid change in sexual mores, such that anyone who holds the exact positions Barack Obama held in 2008 will, in 2016, be denounced as a bigot if they object. > > FTFY. I believe you’ve done a good job of explaining the “get along” request. Depending on who you’re talking to, “get along” means “think like a yellow dog Democrat”, or “learning to accept the choices, requirements, and beliefs of others”. Everyone will “get along” if they would simply think, and act, like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/47 "2017-06-12T22:34:03Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I don’t know what you’re complaining about. I just asked you a simple question. You did not ask “a simple question” you asked several pointed rhetorical questions that seem to me to have much more to do with your disapproval of Trump than an honest intention to further the actual discussion at hand. If I am wrong, I do apologize, but I have no interest in contributing to the tangent you were going on - I think there are already several threads currently open for that line of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/48 "2017-06-12T22:55:49Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Tell you what - why don’t you provide us with an example of a recent speech by Donald Trump concerning the working class that you think is factually correct in its assessment of the problem and the solution. OK, Here is one from March 17 where Trump is addressing German Chancellor Angela Merkel : \*I welcome collaboration between our two countries and our industry leaders. We have some of our great industry leaders here, as you know, Chancellor. Great people. We must embrace new and effective job-training approaches, including online courses, high school curriculums, and private-sector investment that prepare people for trade, manufacturing, technology, and other really well-paying jobs and careers. **These kinds of options can be a positive alternative to a four-year degree. So many people go to college, four years, they don’t like it, they’re not necessarily good at it, but they’re good at other things, like fixing engines and building things. I see it all the time, and I’ve seen it – when I went to school, I saw it. I sat next to people that weren’t necessarily good students but they could take an engine apart blindfolded.** - [https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/03/17/remarks-president-trump-roundtable-discussion-vocational-training-us-and](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/03/17/remarks-president-trump-roundtable-discussion-vocational-training-us-and) The bolding and the underlining are mine. Now, this may not seem like much to most people, but to me there is something very new and different in this approach to the problems of the working class - I was almost taken aback when I heard it. For the most part, what is considered good, what is considered progress is changing people who may be good at a trade and thinking that they are only useful if they can be academically successful. What Trump is saying here is that if you’re good at a trade, you are just as valuable a citizen in America as if you are a professional. He is not trying to make people into something they are not, but is saying they are valuable, that their skills are valuable. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/49 "2017-06-12T23:05:27Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > Thank you, furt, for a rundown of the identity politics of the right, and the lies they use to support the idea that straight white conservative Christian men are the real oppressed class. The fact that you’re unable to grasp that some of those issues cut across identity groups (how do you think religious, low-skill blacks feel about transgendered rights and open borders?) or that there there is a spectrum of possible political positions between (e.g.) whole-hearted embrace of race-based preferences everywhere, every time on the one hand, and “straight white conservative Christian men are the real oppressed class” on the other pretty much illustrates the problem the Dems are facing. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/50 "2017-06-12T23:11:03Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > For the most part, what is considered good, what is considered progress is changing people who may be good at a trade and thinking that they are only useful if they can be academically successful. What Trump is saying here is that if you’re good at a trade, you are just as valuable a citizen in America as if you are a professional. And this resonates with working class people of all types. Bigly. Whether or not you think it’s right, fair or accurate, people who work with their hands have felt for a long time like politicians only care about rich people and/or poor people, but not people like them. The Dems used to have this cohort. They have lost it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/51 "2017-06-12T23:12:11Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The fact that you’re unable to grasp that some of those issues cut across identity groups (how do you think religious, low-skill blacks feel about transgendered rights and open borders?) or that there there is a spectrum of possible political positions between (e.g.) whole-hearted embrace of race-based preferences everywhere, every time on the one hand, and “straight white conservative Christian men are the real oppressed class” on the other pretty much illustrates the problem the Dems are facing. I lived in California when Pete Wilson and the Republicans won with such wedge issues. In less than a generation the Republicans lost California because by fanning those divisions it was not only the minorities that reacted against the Republicans, but most Christians that realized that hate can only get you so far. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/52 "2017-06-12T23:20:54Z")
Yeah, **asahi** , I also thought you overly focused on the word ‘tone’ to be combative. Please. **Mr. Nylock** , continue with the point you wanted to make. Or, I guess, thank you for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/53 "2017-06-12T23:26:04Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > 1. Trump’s policies will help the working class and poor more than Clinton’s would have. If this is the case then the poor and working class minorities that supported Clinton voted against their own interests. > > 2. Clinton’s policies would have helped the working class and poor more than Trump’s will. If this is the case then the white poor and working class people that voted against Trump voted against their own interests. 1. Clinton will help minorities, Trump will help whites, so everyone voted in their interest. 2. Democrats and Republicans are proven liars when it comes to class issues. Trump may be lying, but maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s a vain narcissist who really does want to MAGA. Both of those opinions were common among Trump supporters I know. > [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > The democrats are very intellectual, I can appreciate that, but I think there is just a very dismissive tone with their rhetoric. I guess I feel like the democrats have almost gotten into this self righteous tone that I used to only associate with religious right wing politics. Their rhetoric treats economic issues like a natural law instead of man made problems. No one can do anything about free trade or globalization you know, it’s like gravity. Everyone should go to school and be a programmer or stockbroker. > [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > I was thinking this thread would get into some of the speeches Trump has made concerning the working class recently - it strikes at the heart of the topic of this thread. Unfortunately there seems little interest in that type of discussion. I would guess most of the members of this site are paper pushers, college grads, or involved in a creative industry. But also, Trump is a habitual liar, and many of his policies will hurt the people who voted for him. If he helps the WWC it’ll be by accident. He does talk a nice game, as does Bannon, but what will actually come of it? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/54 "2017-06-12T23:38:05Z")
Saw this article in Business Insider, thought of this thread. [Trump voters support Civil War monuments (70%) more than the GOP health care bill (46%) or the ACA (38%).](http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-voters-confederate-memorials-gop-healthcare-bill-2017-6?) I think I know what issues Mr Shop Class really cares about, sorry. And I don’t agree with them, morally or intellectually. These people didn’t vote for Trump because they felt economically detached from the Democratic Party and Trump (and the GOP) fulfilled that need, they voted for Trump because they felt white-privileged detached from the Democratic Party, and Trump (and the GOP) fulfilled _that_ need. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/55 "2017-06-12T23:40:30Z")
The Democratic party doesn’t have an “identity politics paradigm,” it has a “People should have equal rights and civil rights” paradigm. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/56 "2017-06-12T23:56:26Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The fact that you’re unable to grasp that some of those issues cut across identity groups The only one with a lack of understanding here is you. You’re unable to grasp the fact that the Republican platform of _actively opposing_ the rights of everyone who’s not a straight, white, cisgender, American born conservative Christian man means that it doesn’t matter if the other groups are homogeneous, you are against their rights as a conglomerate. When you claim that black people have just as many rights as white people, and the only reason they have less success is because they’re all stupid, not because of systemic racism, they’re gonna know you’re racist. It doesn’t matter if you then turn to the transphobic among them, and say ‘hey, you hate trannies, right? We hate them more than we do you!’ The Democrats? They accept that everybody has rights. Doesn’t matter their sexuality. Doesn’t matter their gender. Doesn’t matter their race. Nor country of origin, religion, medical status, or anything else. A black man has the same rights as a white man. A lesbian has the same rights as a straight woman. A transgender man has the same rights as a cisgender man. An immigrant has the same rights as the native born. Doesn’t matter that the black man doesn’t give a shit about the lesbian, or actively hates the trans dude. You’re still against _his_ rights. And, actual voting demographics show that he’ll overwhelmingly vote to protect his rights, not take away other people’s…or that the average black person is more liberal than the hypothetical man in question. There’s an old saying - the enemy of my enemy is my friend. When you make an enemy of everybody, don’t be surprised when they ally, even if they don’t see eye to eye about everything. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/57 "2017-06-13T00:36:19Z")
Just trying to make a friendly reminder that the question is whether identity politics is helping or hurting, not whether everybody should have equal rights protected, and protected better. It’s a question of targeting groups of people with a message as opposed to making the message generic. Did that strategy backfire last year, and if so, why? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/58 "2017-06-13T02:36:18Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I would guess most of the members of this site are paper pushers, college grads, or involved in a creative industry. But also, Trump is a habitual liar, **and many of his policies will hurt the people who voted for him**. If he helps the WWC it’ll be by accident. He does talk a nice game, as does Bannon, but what will actually come of it? Trump’s policies will hurt **everyone** if they ever come to fruition. It’s just that some people will have the resources to deal with the pain. When we had the financial crisis in 2008, most people I know were hurt. Even if they didn’t lose their job the value of their retirement accounts and real estate took a hit in most places. But those who were just barely hanging on and getting were pushed into indefinite unemployment or forced to take jobs or careers that paid half the salary. I get that the white working class felt might have felt snubbed by the Democrats, but the policies of the GOP have been unequivocally worse for most Americans than those proposed by Democrats. And Republicans have held most of the power in this country since the late 1990s. I can sympathize with white working class voting for a guy who promises to shake things up and be a man of the people – or at least understand the sentiment. But it ought to be by now clear that Trump is a disaster, regardless of however badly the WWC might have felt snubbed. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/59 "2017-06-13T04:10:05Z")
Tim314 wrote: “Sure, but are you suggesting they should drop issues like LGBT discrimination or racial bias in policing, because those are “minority issues” not “working class issues”?” The two are not, or at least shouldn’t be, mutually exclusive. I expect folks to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673/60 "2017-06-13T04:40:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Just trying to make a friendly reminder that the question is whether identity politics is helping or hurting, not whether everybody should have equal rights protected, and protected better. It’s a question of targeting groups of people with a message as opposed to making the message generic. Did that strategy backfire last year, and if so, why? Yes, and as another poster put it if you’re not invited to the birthday party you are going to chose other friends. The WWC is a large enough chunk of the electorate that they will spoil your day if you can’t corral enough of them to win. Expecting the majority of voters on either side to be “analytical” about candidates and their platforms is absurd, people vote their guts and if you expect to win you’ve got to be the kind of person people cotton to and you have to see enough of them that their impression of you is that you are interested in them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-democrats-identity-politics-paradigm-helping-or-hurting-in-the-age-of-trump/788673.md?page=4)