# Is the drone program a war crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2016, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910 "2016-07-02T06:34:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/41 "2016-07-03T22:54:37Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If you find that this leads you to believe international law is a nonsensical, toothless irrelevance–well, me and you would be on agreement in that regard. Ayup. 'there any liquor left ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/42 "2016-07-03T23:00:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It actually did work for a policeman returning fire at a sniper…who was holding a baby in his arms. The policeman’s shot killed the baby. > > The sniper is the one who is guilty of murder in this scenario, not the policeman. Except that’s not what’s happening. The policeman \*knew \*he was firing at a sniper, who was actually putting people in danger. But it’s not a case of drones firing into crowds wherein insurgents are hiding. It’s not even a case of insurgents deliberately using innocent crowds as hostages/human shields. It’s a case of firing at crowds because an insurgent might could maybe be hiding there according to some random metric spouted off by a computer and better safe than sorry. Who cares ? It’s not like they’re real people and nobody’s getting fired, so, fuck it, right ? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/43 "2016-07-04T01:03:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Except that’s not what’s happening. The policeman \*knew \*he was firing at a sniper, who was actually putting people in danger. But it’s not a case of drones firing into crowds wherein insurgents are hiding. It’s not even a case of insurgents deliberately using innocent crowds as hostages/human shields. It’s a case of firing at crowds because an insurgent might could maybe be hiding there according to some random metric spouted off by a computer and better safe than sorry. Who cares ? It’s not like they’re real people and nobody’s getting fired, so, fuck it, right ? Can you substantiate the claim that rockets were fired at “crowds” because an insurgent “might could maybe be hiding there” according to some “random metric spouted off by a computer?” That sounds a tad hyperbolic. The drone missile program has its faults, and I don’t believe anyone is going to deny that. But grossly overstating the objections is not a good way to press for reforms. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/44 "2016-07-04T02:35:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Can you substantiate the claim that rockets were fired at “crowds” because an insurgent “might could maybe be hiding there” according to some “random metric spouted off by a computer?” That sounds a tad hyperbolic. It’s what’s happening however. Drone strikes are approved based on vague, [insanely broad language](https://youtu.be/K4NRJoCNHIs?t=191). They literally [do not know who they are shooting](https://youtu.be/K4NRJoCNHIs?t=414). The decision to strike is determined on statistics and likelihoods based on satellite surveillance correlating to this or that model. There are no agents on the ground, there are no investigations. And so you get weddings blown up because woah, that’s a lot of cars going to the same place, training camp, gold star ! And they’re not going to stop. which, why would they ? Nobody gives half a fuck when another backyard _méchoui_ gets blown up halfway across the world. Well, the relatives do I suppose but AFAIK nobody in the US military, or its government, has ever been dinged for blowing up a wedding, have they ? Provided that there’s no risk whatsoever to the operator and no repercussions for fucking up time and again (or have they ? I don’t know. You don’t know. But that’s not the salient part. The salient part is,\* they don’t know either\*), random people around the world are going to keep getting blown up for nothing. And every time that happens is one more reason for some devastated son, uncle, father, sister, daughter to go to an actual training camp. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/45 "2016-07-04T03:37:13Z")
John Oliver? Best you can do? I’d have liked some serious substantiation. And even those video clips don’t say what you said. It seems weird that someone complaining about disproportionate casualties would use disproportionate language. You don’t need to exaggerate the drone program’s failings; the real problems with it are plenty bad enough. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/46 "2016-07-04T03:49:07Z")
Maybe someone should charge the terrorists with war crimes. They’ve killed thousands of innocent civilians who didn’t think they were in a war zone. Sorry, but you harbor and provide support to terrorist don’t be surprised when arms directed at them fall near you. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/47 "2016-07-04T04:40:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > John Oliver? Best you can do? Care to dispute the substance ? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/48 "2016-07-04T05:09:59Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Maybe someone should charge the terrorists with war crimes. They’ve killed thousands of innocent civilians who didn’t think they were in a war zone. Sorry, but you harbor and provide support to terrorist don’t be surprised when arms directed at them fall near you. How about if you herd sheep in the same map grid terrorists were last seen in ? How about if you’re driving home from a wedding and the drone operator WAGs you’re really a vehicle convoy ? How about you’re a journalist toting a very gun-looking camera, or a plumber shouldering a long piece of PVC that looks a hell of a lot like a bazooka on a laggy low-res camera ? [Only 15%](https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2014/10/16/only-4-of-drone-victims-in-pakistan-named-as-al-qaeda-members/) of drone strike targets in Pakistan have been (retroactively - again, they **don’t know** who they’re shooting at) positively identified as terrorists or insurgents. 15%. That’s significantly worse than a coin toss. Another reports tallies 28 dead civvies for every confirmed hostile casualty. And no, it’s not because terrorists hide among civilians. It’s because there are no consequences to rolling the dice. Even [guys in the State Department](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/23/yemen-drones_n_4152159.html) think they’re naff on the basic efficiency level : > [@](#): > > Drone strikes take out a few bad guys to be sure, but they also kill a large number of innocent civilians. Given Yemen’s tribal structure, the U.S. generates roughly forty to sixty new enemies for every AQAP [al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula] operative killed by drones.[…]“I’m not absolutely against the use of drones,” said Khoury. But, he added, in “any country where we’re not at war, then it has the complications of sovereignty, of popular opinion. In the end, I’m not talking about international law. I’m talking about cost-benefits.” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/49 "2016-07-04T05:20:17Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Maybe someone should charge the terrorists with war crimes. They’ve killed thousands of innocent civilians who didn’t think they were in a war zone. Sorry, but you harbor and provide support to terrorist don’t be surprised when arms directed at them fall near you. Gotto point out that simply being near to a terrorist =/= harbouring and providing support for a terrorist. And if you find your self equating the two in order to defend a particular strategy, maybe you need to rethink the defensibility of the strategy. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/50 "2016-07-04T05:33:33Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > But if a nation such as Pakistan or Iran were flying drones over the US and killing picnickers and wedding parties as the consequence of an occasional misidentification of a legitimate military or political target Your logic is very strange… Where in the United States has there ever been a “legitimate military or political target” attending a wedding or a picnic? You don’t understand the basic difference between a stable country with a stable legal system and a formal military, and an unstable country with a culture based on terrorism. Your “brown people who speak funny languages” don’t just speak a funny language; They also have funny legal systems(often based on sharia law)—where terrorists are treated as heros and considered legitimate leaders, and their tactics of _INTENTIONALLY_ murdering as many babies as possible are considered legitimate. Witih your disdain for drones, what you are longing for is the good ol’ days when war was “good”, and honorable men obeyed the rules. Like the (apocryphal?) story from World War I about a British general who proudly declared “Gentlemen don’t read each other’s mail” --and refused to read captured documents about an imminent attack the Germans were planning. But sorry—the rules have changed. There will never be another “good” war, like WWII. (i.e. a war where each nation officially signs a declaration of war, uniformed soldiers fight other uniformed soldiers, until one side officially signs a document of surrender, and _then everybody lays down all their weapons_, and within a few months they all go back to being friends again, and help each other rebuild.) The world is not going to return to your idealistic image. The rules have changed. Our enemies no longer wear uniforms. But they do attend weddings, often travelling to the wedding party in convoys of jeeps loaded with explosives , ready for tomorrow’s terror attack at the marketplace. We need to aim our drones very, very carefully. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/51 "2016-07-04T05:43:00Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Yes, thank you for your completely incorrect attribution of my motivations and sensibility. For the record, while the use of drones in a strike capacity was started under the Bush II administration, it has been vastly scaled up under Obama which I regard as a lapse of both judgment and ethics. I don’t regard the use of drones for extrajudicial termination to be a partisan issue that is the responsibility of one party, and it is aptly clear that Ms. Clinton would, if she wins the election, continue and even expand the use of drone strikes. > > You are okay with the use of these attacks as a normal practice of extrajudicial termination because it only affects brown-skinned people who speak a funny language and live far, far away from you. But if a nation such as Pakistan or Iran were flying drones over the US and killing picnickers and wedding parties as the consequence of an occasional misidentification of a legitimate military or political target, it would be you who would be “sermonizing” and “letting the spittle fly over residual anger” in your entitled since of unfairness because it affects you and your neighbors. Likely Clinton would. Trump would just nuke them. Sure, “extrajudicial”- you expect us to send over a US Marshal to serve a arrest warrant? No, if they did so we’d invade and destroy them. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/52 "2016-07-04T05:48:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Care to dispute the substance ? I did already. The video clips you linked to did not say what you said. You said "that rockets were fired at “crowds” because an insurgent “might could maybe be hiding there” according to some “random metric spouted off by a computer.” That was not supported by the video clips. Look, you used hyperbole. Cool. Don’t do that any more. It adds nothing to the discussion, and, among educated people, actually undermines your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/53 "2016-07-04T05:50:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > How about if you herd sheep in the same map grid terrorists were last seen in ? How about if you’re driving home from a wedding and the drone operator WAGs you’re really a vehicle convoy ? How about you’re a journalist toting a very gun-looking camera, or a plumber shouldering a long piece of PVC that looks a hell of a lot like a bazooka on a laggy low-res camera ? . . . More unsupported hyperbole. You’re not helping your cause at all with this hogwash. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/54 "2016-07-04T06:37:05Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Yes, thank you for your completely incorrect attribution of my motivations and sensibility. For the record, while the use of drones in a strike capacity was started under the Bush II administration, it has been vastly scaled up under Obama which I regard as a lapse of both judgment and ethics. I don’t regard the use of drones for extrajudicial termination to be a partisan issue that is the responsibility of one party, and it is aptly clear that Ms. Clinton would, if she wins the election, continue and even expand the use of drone strikes. > > You are okay with the use of these attacks as a normal practice of extrajudicial termination because it only affects brown-skinned people who speak a funny language and live far, far away from you. But if a nation such as Pakistan or Iran were flying drones over the US and killing picnickers and wedding parties as the consequence of an occasional misidentification of a legitimate military or political target, it would be you who would be “sermonizing” and “letting the spittle fly over residual anger” in your entitled since of unfairness because it affects you and your neighbors. > > Stranger I guess brown is the new swarthy. I don’t know how your monitor is calibrated but the folks in Syria and Afghanistan aren’t all brown and that’s not why there is support for blowing up perceived terrorists. There’s support for blowing them up because hopefully it sends a message to the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/55 "2016-07-04T13:34:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > More unsupported hyperbole. You’re not helping your cause at all with this hogwash. How is it hyperbole ? They’re all verbatim war stories related to me by US servicemen, either in active duty or formerly so, with one exception : the camera one, which is known around the world, and that was from a helicopter hovering a couple kilometers away and with actual ground troops in the vicinity. How much better do you think it plays when the camera is on a drone at 40,000 feet or on a satellite, the triggerman is in Nevada and there’s nobody whatsoever on the ground to verify anything even after the fact ? The Oliver video details a 2002 strike approved on three guys foraging for scrapmetal and one ID’d as “possibly Bin Laden” based on his height for chrissakes. Now imagine that for a second. Imagine the decision-making process that must have gone on there, how blinkered you and the entire chain of command have to be to think that Bin Laden would a) go anywhere with only two guys escorting him b) go forage in some godforsaken post-Soviet rustheap or somesuch or \*do anything whatsoever with his own hands \*for that matter c) reckon “weeeell he looks tall enough” is a sufficient criterion to blow someone up. Talk to any grunt. They’re the worst critics of the drone program and the three letter agencies’ move to the 100% hands off intelligence gathering model they use now, that started somewhere in the 90s. Turns out you do need agents on the ground, you do need contacts, you do need to know the lay of the land, you do need the hearts and minds. A camera zooming overhead followed by semi-random explosions is _not enough_, and it causes a lot more problems than it solves. On top of being, yanno, mass careless murder. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/56 "2016-07-04T13:43:24Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Maybe someone should charge the terrorists with war crimes. They’ve killed thousands of innocent civilians who didn’t think they were in a war zone. Sorry, but you harbor and provide support to terrorist don’t be surprised when arms directed at them fall near you. How would you feel if we applied your logic to domestic terrorists? Would _you_ be willing to die in an air raid if it meant bombing the country that the KKK came from? ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/57 "2016-07-04T14:12:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And they’re not going to stop. which, why would they ? Nobody gives half a fuck when another backyard _méchoui_ gets blown up halfway across the world. […] Provided that there’s no risk whatsoever to the operator and no repercussions for fucking up time and again (or have they ? Since you’re painting a rather extreme and inaccurate picture here, I feel like it might be useful to point out that operating a drone is an enormously stressful and traumatizing experience. It’s pretty heavy shit – these aren’t robots or sociopaths on the other end, and nobody _likes_ taking out civilians. Mistakes that lead to taking out random brown folks aren’t a cause for breaking out the nice champaign. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/58 "2016-07-04T14:28:29Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Since you’re painting a rather extreme and inaccurate picture here, I feel like it might be useful to point out that operating a drone is an enormously stressful and traumatizing experience. Would you say it’s more stressful and traumatizing than [being afraid of clear blue skies](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/29/pakistan-family-drone-victim-testimony-congress) ? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/59 "2016-07-04T14:57:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It doesn’t matter what you or any one else thinks. Since no one can enforce a “war crime” charge on the USA what you think about it is irrelevant. Well, it might matter quite a bit to Americans who have an opinion on what their country should or should not be doing in regards to drone strikes. It doesn’t have to go to court to “matter.” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2016, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910/60 "2016-07-04T15:53:03Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > How would you feel if we applied your logic to domestic terrorists? Would _you_ be willing to die in an air raid if it meant bombing the country that the KKK came from? Different subject entirely. The topic is one of war crimes not willingness to die. But let’s address this new goalpost. How is the situation even close to identical? Is another nation at war with the KKK? Does the US have an ineffective or complicit civilian or military enforcement groups? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-drone-program-a-war-crime/758910.md?page=4)