# Is the English Language undergoing a massive process of simplification? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 23, 2018, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416 "2018-07-23T08:13:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/21 "2018-07-23T19:41:10Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > OK, can you give some examples? Pronouns. Both subjects (which in Spanish are gendered in the same places as English ones, but we normally do not make them explicit) and possessives (in our case they are gendered but match the object owned, not the owner). Also possessive articles (completely neuter for us). Fucking. Pain. In the ass. Also the error I’m most likely to make, and I’ve only been speaking English for 40 years. ---
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/22 "2018-07-23T19:42:44Z")
nm – you just answered, Nava. (Though I’d argue that pronouns are nouns, kind of. 🙂 But I see what you mean about the difference and how it causes problems for speakers of a “more gendered” language.) ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/23 "2018-07-23T19:47:06Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > English has undergone 1 and 3, so it’s measurably simpler in SOME ways than even its Germanic cousins. I enjoyed your explanation. > [@guizot](#): > > Why do you look at \*only grammar \* (and only verb forms, at that) when you consider the “complexity” of language? My plan was to write a question, not an essay. I started from a specific situation and included some examples. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Languages are always changing Of course, but since I started learning English it has changed more than my own language has. > [@Derleth](#): > > Did you see that? In the Czech sentence, the word order was unchanged, but the meaning (who was chaser, who was being chased) was completely flipped, a meaning carried entirely by inflection. I have no idea, but chances are their language may have become more complex over the centuries to allow the types of expressions you have just quoted. I know Romanian has. Romanian, whose change seems to go very slowly with the exception of vocabulary, is both complex and complicated, and its numerous exceptions persist without being eliminated by almost any effort of simplification or standardization. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Furthermore, a language will change faster the more it’s in contact with other languages and the more speakers it has. Thus, it is only natural that English should be prone to change because it is not only the native language of people of various nationalities but also the Lingua Franca for billions others. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/24 "2018-07-23T22:22:35Z")
Question: since mountains are continually being eroded by wind and water, and there has been ample time for all of the world’s mountains to be eroded away, why are there still mountains? The analogy to language is clear: we notice an ongoing process of simplification from ancient languages to modern ones, and from earlier stages of our own languages to the present. Human languages have been evolving for 10s of thousands of years, so why are not all modern languages maximally simple? This analogy is not mine, but that of Guy Deutscher whose wonderful book “The Unfolding of Language” deals with exactly this question. It’s an easy and highly educational read and I recommend it to anyone interested in this fascinating subject. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/25 "2018-07-23T22:50:25Z")
UY, my pleasure. snoe, absolutely! Your Japanese examples are fascinating. Some of it I might consider a 21st-century extension of the “widespread literacy” I mentioned — but some of it is about the elimination/collapse of certain _registers_ — in this case, multiple levels of formality. A great example of how broader cultural changes can be bound up with linguistic ones. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2018, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/26 "2018-07-23T23:03:05Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Only dead and artificial languages have standardized grammar. Any living natural language has a grammar which is discovered, not dictated. Yes yes yes, I’ll contact my lawyers. In the real world, we do have rules for the use of language, even if they are not always observed. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/27 "2018-07-24T01:02:20Z")
You might want to read the book _What Language Is: And What It Isn’t and What It Could Be_ by John McWhorter, which gives many examples of how languages with few speakers and little contact with other languages tend to have more irregularity than those with lots of speakers and lots of contact. If you know just some languages with more than a hundred thousand speakers, you have no idea how complicated a mess a language can be. The way I put it is that contact with other languages tends to smooth off the rough edges of a language. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/28 "2018-07-24T01:25:43Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Pronouns. Both subjects (which in Spanish are gendered in the same places as English ones, but we normally do not make them explicit) and possessives (in our case they are gendered but match the object owned, not the owner). Also possessive articles (completely neuter for us). > > Fucking. Pain. In the ass. Also the error I’m most likely to make, and I’ve only been speaking English for 40 years. Can you offer some specific examples of this phenomenon? Indeed, I’m finding all the examples in this thread to be a bit abstract, whether it’s about English or Japanese or whatever. I’d benefit from specific examples. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/29 "2018-07-24T01:30:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes yes yes, I’ll contact my lawyers. > > In the real world, we do have rules for the use of language, even if they are not always observed. Your use of “observed” here is quite interesting. You obviously mean that people using a language do not always adhere to the rules. But any linguist will tell you that rules are determined by “observing” how people actually use the language, quite a different meaning of observation. But when it comes down to it, you’re wrong. The grammatical rules of a language are the rules that people actually follow when they’re using the language, not the rules someone else thinks they ought to be using. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/30 "2018-07-24T01:31:46Z")
[Fun podcast](http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2018/06/john_mcwhorter_on_linguistic_assimilation_and_softening.html) on changes in English. In the last ten minutes, among other things, we see how “ass” can now be a pronoun! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/31 "2018-07-24T03:53:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Your use of “observed” here is quite interesting. You obviously mean that people using a language do not always adhere to the rules. But any linguist will tell you that rules are determined by “observing” how people actually use the language, quite a different meaning of observation. > > But when it comes down to it, you’re wrong. The grammatical rules of a language are the rules that people actually follow when they’re using the language, not the rules someone else thinks they ought to be using. Right. I was going to reply to that post, but you did it for me, and said exactly what I was going to say. Well, I will add one thing: An academic field of study can’t be overturned with an “I don’t like it”, yet that’s all prescriptivists have to offer when faced with the existence of linguistics. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/32 "2018-07-24T07:06:46Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Can you offer some specific examples of this phenomenon? > > Indeed, I’m finding all the examples in this thread to be a bit abstract, whether it’s about English or Japanese or whatever. I’d benefit from specific examples. A: Whose book is that? B: It’s **hers** , not **his**.OrA: Could you hand me the book? B: Sure A: No, I mean **his** book, not **her** book. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/33 "2018-07-24T10:39:24Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > A: Whose book is that? > B: It’s **hers** , not **his**.OrA: Could you hand me the book? > B: Sure > A: No, I mean **his** book, not **her** book. And what mistakes does Nava tend to make? And how is it different in Spanish? And what is a possessive article? The only articles I am aware of in a English are “the,” “a,” and “an.” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/34 "2018-07-24T11:10:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And what is a possessive article? The only articles I am aware of in a English are “the,” “a,” and “an.” Correct. Those are articles in English. In languages like Spanish those articles can indicate possession and match the gender of the object they refer to. French does this as well, and I’m going to guess other Romance languages do, too. Acsenray, I’m guessing you don’t know any foreign languages…? In French, both _la mienne_ and _le mien_ mean “mine”. If you ask someone in French “which is yours, the peach or the book?” they can answer “la mienne” for the peach (la pêche) or “le mien” (le livre) for the book. La/le are gendered articles, corresponding to the English “the”. In English you can’t use “mine” with a gender to indicate which is yours, you have to say either “the peach” or “the book”. Unlike in French (and I’m guessing, Spanish) you can’t simply say “mine”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/35 "2018-07-24T12:00:51Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Correct. > > Those are articles in English. > > In languages like Spanish those articles can indicate possession and match the gender of the object they refer to. French does this as well, and I’m going to guess other Romance languages do, too. So what mistakes, specifically, does a Spanish speaker like Nava tend to make based on these differences? > [@](#): > > Acsenray, I’m guessing you don’t know any foreign languages…? You’re wrong. > [@](#): > > In French, both _la mienne_ and _le mien_ mean “mine”. If you ask someone in French “which is yours, the peach or the book?” they can answer “la mienne” for the peach (la pêche) or “le mien” (le livre) for the book. La/le are gendered articles, corresponding to the English “the”. In English you can’t use “mine” with a gender to indicate which is yours, you have to say either “the peach” or “the book”. Unlike in French (and I’m guessing, Spanish) you can’t simply say “mine”. I was aware of that form in French, but I would not have identified those as “possessive articles.” The articles themselves aren’t indicating possession. I wanted specific examples, because I couldn’t surmise what Nava was talking about. And I still don’t understand how this is an example of gendering in _English_ grammar. In fact, looking back at Nava’s words, I don’t think the examples you’re offering are illustrating what she seems to be saying: > [@Nava](#): > > Pronouns. Both subjects (which in Spanish are gendered in the same places as English ones, but we normally do not make them explicit) A subject in English is gendered. Okay, so “he” and “she.” In Spanish, the equivalents are, I think “él” and “ella.” What mistakes does the difference in gendering cause a Spanish speaker to make in English? > [@](#): > > and possessives (in our case they are gendered but match the object owned, not the owner). This is clear to me, but I think specific examples would still be helpful. > [@](#): > > Also possessive articles (completely neuter for us). This doesn’t match your explanation. Possessive articles in Spanish are neuter. So what mistake does this tend to cause when speaking English? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/36 "2018-07-24T14:15:48Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Well, I will add one thing: An academic field of study can’t be overturned with an “I don’t like it”, yet that’s all prescriptivists have to offer when faced with the existence of linguistics. I’m not a prescriptivist. I’m a linguistic agnostic. Language is both mutable and flexible. But attempting to claim that rules _don’t exist_ is frankly stupid, as evidenced by the fact that you can read this post. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/37 "2018-07-24T14:28:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not a prescriptivist. I’m a linguistic agnostic. Language is both mutable and flexible. But attempting to claim that rules _don’t exist_ is frankly stupid, as evidenced by the fact that you can read this post. Who Said that rules don’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/38 "2018-07-24T14:47:51Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Acsenray, I’m guessing you don’t know any foreign languages…? I don’t believe that’s the issue, but if you spend much time with Spanish speakers talking in English, I think you’ll recognize what **Nava** is referring to. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/39 "2018-07-24T14:56:03Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > A: Whose book is that? > B: It’s **hers** , not **his**.OrA: Could you hand me the book? > B: Sure > A: No, I mean **his** book, not **her** book. Why wouldn’t you say, “Could you hand me her book?” This does not require further clarification. This doesn’t seem like a good example. And the same “mistake” could be made in spanish. In “¿Podrías entregarme el libro?” The only reference to gender is that of the book, not the gender of who owns it. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416/40 "2018-07-24T15:35:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not a prescriptivist. I’m a linguistic agnostic. Language is both mutable and flexible. But attempting to claim that rules _don’t exist_ is frankly stupid, as evidenced by the fact that you can read this post. The rules we commonly refer to as physical laws exist. Who prescribed them? Who said that electrons must behave this way, and if they don’t, they’re barbarians who didn’t learn proper behavior in school? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-english-language-undergoing-a-massive-process-of-simplification/818416.md?page=3)