# Is the FBI right in decrying the stronger encryption about to come to smartphones? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754 "2014-09-28T02:28:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/21 "2014-09-28T14:55:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, they’re right to decry it. Google and Apple are basically reaching out to those who have something to hide from the law and offering their assistance. So, the fact that this protection can be used for legitimate reasons should be ignored so long as it can be manipulated by evil doers? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/22 "2014-09-28T15:37:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This technology mainly exists to thwart law enforcement, and it’s foolish to pretend otherwise. Perhaps if law enforcement hadn’t spent the last few years circumventing the law and people’s expectations of privacy, the public wouldn’t be as interested in thwarting them. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/23 "2014-09-28T16:07:30Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Perhaps if law enforcement hadn’t spent the last few years circumventing the law and people’s expectations of privacy, the public wouldn’t be as interested in thwarting them. The problem is, these measures don’t only apply to protect from improper searches, they prevent them even when there is a warrant. The question to me is whether that is an acceptable use of technology, and that applies regardless of whether the authorities have acted wrongly. Two wrongs don’t make a right. So, the simple question is, do you think it’s an acceptable use of encryption technology to set up a device by default such that the police can’t access it with a warrant? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/24 "2014-09-28T17:07:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This is a disingenuous criticism. Even with due process, judges, warrants, and everything else you can imagine, the information on the phones could be beyond retrieval. That’s the problem. Why, just the other day I saw a whole row of devices designed to make paper records irretrievable, even if the police had a warrant for them. Shame on Office Depot! ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/25 "2014-09-28T17:20:17Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So, the fact that this protection can be used for legitimate reasons should be ignored so long as it can be manipulated by evil doers? Please provide a legitimate reason for making it impossible for the police to serve a warrant on your data. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/26 "2014-09-28T17:34:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please provide a legitimate reason for making it impossible for the police to serve a warrant on your data. How exactly does it make it impossible? ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/27 "2014-09-28T18:11:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please provide a legitimate reason for making it impossible for the police to serve a warrant on your data. They can still serve a warrant, just not to Apple. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/28 "2014-09-28T18:23:10Z")
Please clear something up for me. If someone is served a warrant for his smartphone and its contents, can he seriously say “I don’t know the password”? If he has been shown to have used that phone in the recent past (and thus knows the password), is that not contempt of court? And could he then not be imprisoned until he complies with the court order? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/29 "2014-09-28T18:23:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, they’re right to decry it. Google and Apple are basically reaching out to those who have something to hide from the law and offering their assistance. No, they’re exaggerating the “risks” and attempting to manipulate private entities that otherwise owe them nothing. Apple and Google are taking reasonable steps to help improve security across the board. The fact that those measures happen to make things tougher for law enforcement is incidental. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/30 "2014-09-28T18:36:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes, they’re right to decry it. Google and Apple are basically reaching out to those who have something to hide from the law and offering their assistance. Yeah, because if you are not breaking the law, why would you need or want privacy? All decent people will willingly submit to the will of Big Brother, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/31 "2014-09-28T18:40:48Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > No, they’re exaggerating the “risks” and attempting to manipulate private entities that otherwise owe them nothing. Apple and Google are American businesses that would not exist without the legal protection and benefits that the American government provides them with. They owe the government _everything._ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/32 "2014-09-28T18:41:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Yeah, because if you are not breaking the law, why would you need or want privacy? All decent people will willing submit to the will of Big Brother, after all. You mock the question, but you don’t answer it. If you’re not breaking the law, why do you care if the government knows what you’re up to? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/33 "2014-09-28T18:43:47Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Please clear something up for me. > > If someone is served a warrant for his smartphone and its contents, can he seriously say “I don’t know the password”? If he has been shown to have used that phone in the recent past (and thus knows the password), is that not contempt of court? And could he then not be imprisoned until he complies with the court order? Of course – but that’s too much like _work_. As noted earlier in the thread, these guys have no one to blame but their own damnfool selves for forfeiting the public’s trust. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/34 "2014-09-28T18:47:39Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > As noted earlier in the thread, these guys have no one to blame but their own damnfool selves for forfeiting the public’s trust. No, they have the for-profit media to blame for looking at a traitor trying to expose national security secrets to our enemies, and seeing dollar signs in the sensational, alarmist headlines they could wring out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/35 "2014-09-28T18:48:39Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Please clear something up for me. > > If someone is served a warrant for his smartphone and its contents, can he seriously say “I don’t know the password”? If he has been shown to have used that phone in the recent past (and thus knows the password), is that not contempt of court? And could he then not be imprisoned until he complies with the court order? > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Of course – but that’s too much like _work_. > > As noted earlier in the thread, these guys have no one to blame but their own damnfool selves for forfeiting the public’s trust. I think **KarlGauss** ’s question is: is there any successful legal defense available for the phone owner? For example, can he say that requiring him to provide the password forces him to incriminate himself in violation of the Fifth Amendment? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/36 "2014-09-28T18:49:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You mock the question, but you don’t answer it. If you’re not breaking the law, why do you care if the government knows what you’re up to? It’s called privacy. The fact that it’s legal means nobody needs to know what I’m doing. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/37 "2014-09-28T18:50:59Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > It’s called privacy. The fact that it’s legal means nobody needs to know what I’m doing. So why are you so worried that the government will find out you’re behaving legally? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/38 "2014-09-28T18:55:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So why are you so worried that the government will find out you’re behaving legally? There are legal behaviors that people might still legitimately like to keep private. It’s no one’s business what hygiene products I buy, or what health problems I have, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/39 "2014-09-28T18:55:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So why are you so worried that the government will find out you’re behaving legally? Maybe my clients would like to be able to communicate with their lawyer without cops/prosecutors listening in, or otherwise gaining access to legally privileged conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754/40 "2014-09-28T18:56:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You mock the question, but you don’t answer it. If you’re not breaking the law, why do you care if the government knows what you’re up to? This is high-grade nonsense. A train of thought beloved of fascist states everywhere. Are you seriously suggesting that you are happy for the government to know everything you do or say? Legal or otherwise? Can I put a camera in your bedroom? I think you may be looking at a picture of me whilst wanking and though I can’t really blame you I’d prefer to know for sure so that I can inform your S.O. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fbi-right-in-decrying-the-stronger-encryption-about-to-come-to-smartphones/699754.md?page=3)