# Is the fear related to nuclear energy rational? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978 "2014-08-30T17:56:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/121 "2014-09-03T18:41:15Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Yet here I am in Antioch, California posting with electrons generated by a wind farm across the river that is the equivalent of a whole nuclear reactor that is actually working. Wind and solar work now. We do not have enough of them to power the whole country yet, but more windmills go up every week. Sounds great! Out of curiosity, how many megawatts does this “wind farm across the river” make? > [@](#): > > It is an inccident related to the operation of a nuclear plant that if left unattended or dealt with incorrectly will lead to disaster. If left unattended, a coolant leak, in general, will not turn into disaster. But I applaud you for taking back your claim that a leak is a nuclear accident. > [@](#): > > The US Navy has lost two nuclear submarines, the Russian six. The Russians admit that their loses were power plant related. The US refused to list any cause. This is totally nonsense – both sinkings were extensively investigated, and we have a [very good idea](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)#Disaster_sequence_of_10_April_1963) what went wrong on the Thresher, while the cause of the Scorpion’s loss is more inconclusive. Sometimes mysteries are just mysteries. > [@](#): > > You claimed to be a nuclear engineer. In the Navy, to be a Qualified Nuclear Engineer means that one has passed and completed Prospective Nuclear Engineer Officer School (PNEO) at Naval Reactors. I passed and completed PNEO, and am therefore a Qualified Nuclear Engineer. That means I’m qualified to serve as Engineer Officer (also known as Chief Engineer) of a nuclear submarine. > [@](#): > > You did not claim to be an “operating engineer”. There is a world of difference between a college educated engineer with a degree from a university who is certified to design stuff and the fellow who stands at the controls of a piece of equipment. You didn’t exactly disclose that. I used Navy terminology. Perhaps I should have explained this better. > [@](#): > > No it’s not. Vast new wind farms beg to differ. [Shiloh wind power plant - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiloh_Wind_Power_Plant). The project has since expanded. This “vast new wind farm” has a much, much smaller power generation capacity than an average commercial nuclear reactor. > [@](#): > > That would be true about the accident at Three Mile Island. Not the finest moment in US nuclear history, but hardly the worst. There have been other reactors accidents in the US, I’ll let you google them yourself. What’s the worst, in your opinion? > [@](#): > > I already use them. Good for you! > [@](#): > > I’m against building new plants, and stepping up safety and maintenance and training at existing plants. The existing plants should continue to operate, but they need more precautions. So we only disagree on whether new plants should be built. > [@](#): > > [http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/13/3436923/germany-energy-records/](http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/13/3436923/germany-energy-records/) and two years earlier [Wind power in Germany - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany) Germany is slowly getting to 10%, which jives with what I’ve said and not with your hyperbole. Good job, Germany! Tiny [Denmark](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark) is ahead – over 30%. Way to go, little Viking dudes! > [@](#): > > Show me your Bachelor of Science degree from an accredited university in engineering. My degree is in Physics. > [@](#): > > If you are an operating engineer, fine, you are an operating engineer, but don’t come into a thread on nuclear power and not qualify engineer with operating engineer. I already explained what I meant by “qualified navy nuclear engineer”. It’s a Navy term that one achieves by completing PNEO school at Naval Reactors. > [@](#): > > But you still don’t seem to understand the nature of a fission reaction. (That is what gave you away as an operating engineer.) I do understand it, and you’re still beating up this straw man – I never stated anything counterfactual about nuclear fission. It’s a sideshow in this discussion that you’ve latched onto. > [@](#): > > By all means pick up women saying you are a navy nuclear engineer. Already married. But I’ll keep saying it, because I completed PNEO school. > [@](#): > > But I’m a bit surprised that you are still under the impression that a bomb is different than a reactor in the physical laws and processes it uses. I’m surprised too, because I never said they use different physical laws. I’m not aware of _any objects in the universe_ that don’t use the same physical laws. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/122 "2014-09-03T19:25:04Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > There is a world of difference between a college educated engineer with a degree from a university who is certified to design stuff and the fellow who stands at the controls of a piece of equipment. There’s an even greater difference between an operating engineer, and a lawyer. > [@](#): > > congrats to the Germans on their renewable success. We already touched on this. The price of this success is a lot of dead Chinese, an increase in greenhouse emissions, and the highest energy prices in Europe. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/123 "2014-09-03T19:43:10Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I went looking for the associated pit thread, and found…there wasn’t one. The forbearance shown by so many of the people arguing here is commendable. Oh there were some Pit threads. They were all locked. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/124 "2014-09-03T19:45:18Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Right now nothing scales to the size we need other than nuclear if the goal is clean energy. Rubbish. Not only would replacing all power plants with reactors not solve the problem, it would make it worse. There would be only ten years (maybe) of fuel if there were enough reactors running to replace all fossil fuels. Methods to extract uranium from the oceans are possible, but at more than ten times the cost. Which would make electricity ten times more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/125 "2014-09-03T20:48:07Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > . . . seems you overestimated by a factor of ten. . . . > > . . . or the twenty foot deep pile of bird carcasses under each wind mill? [Per this site,](http://www.globalwindday.org/faqs/how-many-wind-turbines-are-there-in-the-world/) there were 225,000 turbines worldwide in 2012; and per [Smithsonian Magazine](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-wind-turbines-really-kill-180948154/?no-ist), turbines kill 140,000 to 328,000 birds per year. At less than two birds per year killed per each wind turbine, you’ll require each mill to run for thousands of years – or to kill Arabian Rocs – to pile up carcasses twenty feet deep. Something about overestimating? (Not to take too much away from your main point, which is valid: these machines do kill birds.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/126 "2014-09-03T20:53:43Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > . . . per kilowatt hour, solar kills more people than nuclear. So does wind. . . . This was alluded to, upthread, but never validated. How is this possible? What is the cause of death from solar panels or wind turbines? Are we counting the industrial accidents in their creation and erection? Nuclear is, to be sure, remarkably safe, but who, exactly, has died from wind turbines? At least with coal, we have a very clear answer: coal-mining accidents have killed thousands, and that doesn’t even begin to take into account the harm from pollution. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/127 "2014-09-03T22:03:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > This was alluded to, upthread, but never validated. How is this possible? What is the cause of death from solar panels or wind turbines? Are we counting the industrial accidents in their creation and erection? Nuclear is, to be sure, remarkably safe, but who, exactly, has died from wind turbines? > > At least with coal, we have a very clear answer: coal-mining accidents have killed thousands, and that doesn’t even begin to take into account the harm from pollution. I’ve seen cites on this before, but never a breakdown of how it works out. My WAG would be they are counting deaths from mining and production as well as installation, operations and maintenance. Wind farms are really large scale building projects with the possibilities of accidents happening in both production, installation and maintenance. Solar…well, there would be a lot of maintenance, but not sure how it would be more dangerous to build and maintain one that do the same for a nuke plant (not that either of them have a very large death rate I’d guess, either from production, maintenance or operation). So, would love to see a cite on this as well. Of course, getting to the OP, it kind of underscores that most of the fears related to nuclear energy, such as the ones shown by the OP, are pretty irrational when looked at, well, rationally. Deaths due to nuclear are dwarfed by energy production systems that are comparable in scale (i.e. fossil fuels). Niche energy production systems, such as wind and solar, by the very fact that they don’t scale up anywhere in the ball park of nuclear (even in the US after literally decades of no new nuclear plants built, and despite the push for renewable energy initiatives for things like wind and solar) are still comparable from a deaths perspective…which says it all right there. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/128 "2014-09-03T23:25:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I’ve seen cites on this before, but never a breakdown of how it works out. My WAG would be they are counting deaths from mining and production as well as installation, operations and maintenance. Wind farms are really large scale building projects with the possibilities of accidents happening in both production, installation and maintenance. . . . So, for instance, we could say, and probably truthfully, that Baseball is more dangerous than nuclear power…because of the workmen killed while building stadiums. It isn’t exactly a one-to-one comparison, but it does have some validity. > [@](#): > > Of course, getting to the OP, it kind of underscores that most of the fears related to nuclear energy, such as the ones shown by the OP, are pretty irrational when looked at, well, rationally. . . . Total agreement. Someone pointed out the mis-assessment of risk people make, in general, regarding air traffic vs. automobile traffic. Without seeing the real statistics, our experiences tell us (wrongly!) that airplanes are riskier than cars. Real numbers are one of the more rational ways to evaluate risks. But…the comparisons do have to be kept honest. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/129 "2014-09-03T23:38:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There’s an even greater difference between an operating engineer, and a lawyer. > Regards, > Shodan Yes, the chief difference is that I don’t claim to be any kind of engineer. And when I do claim something like 125 foot historical tsunami wave heights, and all the engineers and physicists scoff, I provide a cite, because I remember seeing the site and the statistic. Here are 10 interesting factoids about radiation. [10 Sizzling Radiation Facts - Listverse](http://listverse.com/2014/05/28/10-lesser-known-things-involving-radiation/) > **[Effects of the Chernobyl disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_the_Chernobyl_disaster#25_years_after_the_incident)** > > The Chernobyl disaster of 26 April 1986 triggered the release of radioactive contamination into the atmosphere in the form of both particulate and gaseous radioisotopes. As of 2024\[update\], it remains the world's largest known release of radioactivity into the natural environment. > The work of the Scientific Committee on Problems of the Environment (SCOPE) suggests that the Chernobyl disaster cannot be directly compared to atmospheric tests of nuclear weapons by simply saying that it is better ... > **[Why Can People Live in Hiroshima and Nagasaki Now, But Not Chernobyl?](http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/10/can-people-live-hiroshima-nagasaki-now-chernobyl/)** > > Olivia asks: Why is it that Chernobyl is still toxic, but there are millions of people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki without dying? On August 6 and 9, 1945, U.S. airmen dropped the nuclear bombs Little Boy and Fat Man on the Japanese cities of... ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/130 "2014-09-04T00:36:22Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > And when I do claim something like 125 foot historical tsunami wave heights, and all the engineers and physicists scoff, I provide a cite, because I remember seeing the site and the statistic. Experience has shown that facts (and sources) will not matter. Because it’s not a matter of facts and evidence. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/131 "2014-09-04T00:43:41Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > [Per this site,](http://www.globalwindday.org/faqs/how-many-wind-turbines-are-there-in-the-world/) there were 225,000 turbines worldwide in 2012; and per [Smithsonian Magazine](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-wind-turbines-really-kill-180948154/?no-ist), turbines kill 140,000 to 328,000 birds per year. > > At less than two birds per year killed per each wind turbine, you’ll require each mill to run for thousands of years – or to kill Arabian Rocs – to pile up carcasses twenty feet deep. > > Something about overestimating? > > (Not to take too much away from your main point, which is valid: these machines do kill birds.) How many birds do house cats kill every year … ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/132 "2014-09-04T00:45:35Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > It is just over double for the fifth tier. I pay it for my AC, as it is a cost of doing business in my home. > > The thing with electric cars is to use pay chargers outside your home to charge them up. I’ll have to ask my brother about this as he has an electric car. But it is typical to see a few Leafs or Teslas on the Freeway or at the chargers in Walnut Creek. [ka’ching] … thanks for subsidizing my electric bill. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/133 "2014-09-04T00:47:10Z")
How … exactly … does a solar panel kill someone? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/134 "2014-09-04T01:20:41Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Show me your Bachelor of Science degree from an accredited university in engineering. If you are an operating engineer, fine, you are an operating engineer, but don’t come into a thread on nuclear power and not qualify engineer with operating engineer. There is a big difference. You get as much respect from me as the sonarman and the other guys with the dolphins. Thank you for serving. But you still don’t seem to understand the nature of a fission reaction. (That is what gave you away as an operating engineer.) By all means pick up women saying you are a navy nuclear engineer. Knock it off. If a poster submits evidence that contradicts their claim that they have knowledge of a field, it is permitted to point that out. This quoted statement is nothing but unsubstantiated _ad hominem_ that does nothing to further the discussion while edging right up to the line of accusing a poster of lying–and that is a violation of the rules. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/135 "2014-09-04T01:21:38Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > How many birds do house cats kill every year … Exactly. How many birds die of old age…or disease…or by flying into tree branches…? Are wind turbines significant as an increased cause of bird deaths? Meanwhile, they’re making them less deadly to birds by adding warning sounds, etc. There’s always room for improvement. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/136 "2014-09-04T01:46:46Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > How … exactly … does a solar panel kill someone? It can fall on them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/137 "2014-09-04T01:50:12Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > How many birds do house cats kill every year … More than a billion. But they have it coming. How many birds do power lines kill every year? [http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/collisions/powerlines.html](http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/collisions/powerlines.html) I’m sure they have it coming too. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/138 "2014-09-04T02:08:12Z")
I’ve been told numerous times by some conservatives that scientists don’t understand how radioactive decay works, which means that scientists have no idea how to build a stable, safe nuclear plant. Who’s telling me this? Why, it’s all the conservatives who run around screeching about “evilution.” Ok, that was a bit sarcastic, but bottom line, if you are one of the people spreading misinformation about evolutionary theory, then you don’t get to lecture me about nuclear safety, because you are a hypocritical idiot. Aside from that, though, and more seriously, I live in a country where the Republicans and half of the Democrats fight tooth and nail against regulation and inspection regimes. So, until the majority of this country decides that regulatory and inspection regimes are okay, I will fight tooth and nail against new nuclear construction. When people can look at the BP oil spill or that fertilizer plant explosion in West Texas and think those are acceptable outcomes, there is no way I’ll support the building of new nuclear plants. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/139 "2014-09-04T02:08:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Exactly. How many birds die of old age…or disease…or by flying into tree branches…? > > Are wind turbines significant as an increased cause of bird deaths? > > Meanwhile, they’re making them less deadly to birds by adding warning sounds, etc. There’s always room for improvement. I have this incredibly silly vision of “wind” turbines that are actually superglue-covered bird traps. The birds’ frantic efforts to free themselves turn the blades until they die of exhaustion and are replaced by more birds. Renewable organic energy! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978/140 "2014-09-04T02:28:47Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Aside from that, though, and more seriously, I live in a country where the Republicans and half of the Democrats fight tooth and nail against regulation and inspection regimes. So, until the majority of this country decides that regulatory and inspection regimes are okay, I will fight tooth and nail against new nuclear construction. When people can look at the BP oil spill or that fertilizer plant explosion in West Texas and think those are acceptable outcomes, there is no way I’ll support the building of new nuclear plants. I think you’ve nailed it here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-fear-related-to-nuclear-energy-rational/696978.md?page=8)