# Is the Flat White a Fake Out? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 20, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222 "2015-02-20T20:52:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/1 "2015-02-20T20:52:18Z")
From another thread, **Amateur Barbarian** has this to say: > [@](#): > > [Sometimes what makes one product different from another is] nothing but marketing and predefining customer expectations. For example, there are many generic flavors in the industry that are only “berry” or “cherry” or “tripleberry” or “foobar” because the package says so - but tasters will insist that it tastes like just that label. Very common in the food industry. The expectation becomes self-setting. > > Given the claim of the two simple ingredients, identical to four or five other standard mixed coffee drinks purveyed by millions of sellers, there are only three possibilities: > > 1. A “flat white” is distinguishable from lattes and 'inos only because SB claims so. > 2. A “flat white” uses ingredients hidden from the consumer to generate mouthfeel and flavor not available with any combination of coffee+milk, no matter how artfully processed at the counter. > 3. After 20 years, SB has found a way to mix these two ingredients that no one else previously has, including them, and the process is likely not replicable by home baristas. It seems to me there’s a fourth possibility: 1. After 20 years, SB has latched onto a way to mix these two ingredients that people elsewhere have been doing, themselves, for years, but which Starbucks had yet to do. As to 1), I don’t think this is true because I, me my ownself did a blind test precisely to allay my own suspicions and could tell a clear distinction between the latte and the flat white, both in flavor and mouthfeel. Preferred the flat white. I don’t think 2) is true because if there are weird ingredients in Starbucks’s pure unflavored coffee/milk drinks, I would think this information would be readily available online. Maybe I’m overoptimistic, or am just failing to find it? 1. is not something anyone is claiming, since the whole idea is that flat whites have been around for years and Starbucks is only just now cottoning onto the concept. Home baristas make flat whites millions of times every day. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/2 "2015-02-20T21:07:18Z")
IM not sure I get what the confusion/mystery is: > **[Flat white](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_white)** > > A flat white is a coffee drink consisting of espresso with microfoam (steamed milk with small, fine bubbles and a glossy or velvety consistency). It is comparable to a latte, but smaller in volume and with less microfoam, therefore having a higher proportion of coffee to milk, and milk that is more velvety in consistency – allowing the espresso to dominate the flavour, while being supported by the milk. > A flat white is generally served in a ceramic cup with saucer. Milk is frothed and foamy a... seems to clearly state this was invented in Australia in the 1970’s - so it seems to support your theory. IM curious to give one a try - what are the magic starbucks words i should use? Flat White? I usually like my coffee pretty sweet - but am always willing to try new (or not so new) things. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/3 "2015-02-20T21:18:14Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > 1. After 20 years, SB has latched onto a way to mix these two ingredients that people elsewhere have been doing, themselves, for years, but which Starbucks had yet to do. I wouldn’t argue against the possibility, only that it’s odd that there’s a way to mix two or three ingredients that the world’s most ridiculously prolific seller of same hadn’t bothered to ever try. Amid endless micro-variations on large, small, biggi, hot, cold, with, without and upside down. And now, somehow, just plain old 'spresso and milk has a completely new variation in their hands. Something does not add up, here. I think eventually there will be an “oh, yeah, by the way” addendum to the story. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/4 "2015-02-20T21:29:33Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I wouldn’t argue against the possibility, only that it’s odd that there’s a way to mix two or three ingredients that the world’s most ridiculously prolific seller of same hadn’t bothered to ever try. Amid endless micro-variations on large, small, biggi, hot, cold, with, without and upside down. And now, somehow, just plain old 'spresso and milk has a completely new variation in their hands. > > Something does not add up, here. I think eventually there will be an “oh, yeah, by the way” addendum to the story. Are you just straight up ignoring every post that clear states that it’s been around in Australia since the 70’s and is clearly prepared differently from a cappuccino or a latte? ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/5 "2015-02-20T22:24:49Z")
Does Starbucks do long blacks? Could be another amazing new coffee innovation. ---
**Author:** ![araminty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5e925/32.png) [@araminty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/araminty)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/6 "2015-02-20T23:08:41Z")
> [@Weedy](#): > > Does Starbucks do long blacks? Could be another amazing new coffee innovation. I think you could get the same kind of drink in the US by ordering a “backwards Americano” - water first, then espresso. I haven’t tried it myself, but it might be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/7 "2015-02-21T11:03:56Z")
I’ve heard of flat whites before, on this board, as an Aussie coffee thing. I assume someone will come along to explain it to you. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/8 "2015-02-21T16:06:26Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Are you just straight up ignoring every post that clear states that it’s been around in Australia since the 70’s and is clearly prepared differently from a cappuccino or a latte? No, because many of those comment came along late in the thread(s). However, on reading about the supposed differences between the two or three basic “coffee+milk” beverages, based on the subtlest shadings of what’s heated when and how and the exact consistency to which the milk is foamed and how they are layered in the cup by highly skilled artisans… it pretty much confirms what I think of people who drop $1k or more at Starbucks on an annual basis. The wookie entry on the Flat White - or is it the Flat white, or flat white? - is a ten-year history of nearly theological debate, for example. Bottoms up, folks. Enjoy. ('“Ma’am? Refill? …thanks.”) ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/9 "2015-02-21T17:08:22Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I wouldn’t argue against the possibility, only that it’s odd that there’s a way to mix two or three ingredients that the world’s most ridiculously prolific seller of same hadn’t bothered to ever try. Amid endless micro-variations on large, small, biggi, hot, cold, with, without and upside down. And now, somehow, just plain old 'spresso and milk has a completely new variation in their hands. > > Something does not add up, here. I think eventually there will be an “oh, yeah, by the way” addendum to the story. They also don’t have cortado on the menu. They’re all just small tweaks to coffee:milk ratio and how the milk is heated. It doesn’t necesarily make sense to offer every variation. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/10 "2015-02-21T18:05:43Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > They’re all just small tweaks to coffee:milk ratio and how the milk is heated. Yes. Even as a very devoted coffee-as-coffee aficionado, I really can’t tell the difference between the endless coffee+dairy variations, nor much care if I can. I’ll go heavy on the cream for after-dinner coffee, when I drink it and when I don’t order a mocha instead, but I’ve never developed the slightest taste - in either sense - for ice-a-cream-a coffees. So the nearly religious arguments about one vs. the others is highly amusing. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t necesarily make sense to offer every variation. Well, I was thrown by the fact that it’s Starbucks, which doesn’t seem to allow many gaps in its product array or marketing plans, and a variation that’s been well-known in a large-ish market since before SB existed. Seems… sloppy of them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/11 "2015-02-21T20:57:42Z")
They haven’t stumbled upon anything new, even for themselves. They saw the flat white elsewhere and deliberately mimicked it. They hadn’t offered it before because they didn’t think there would be a enough of a (U.S.) market for it, relative to the expense of offering it. And, yes, of course varying the preparation and ratio of ingredients can change the taste of something. Do you think cakes and cookies taste the same? But you say that’s baking and science. So are microfoams. And if they didn’t change the taste, they wouldn’t be so big. You’ve got more air in the mixture and probably slightly scalded milk. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/12 "2015-02-21T20:59:42Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, I was thrown by the fact that it’s Starbucks, which doesn’t seem to allow many gaps in its product array or marketing plans, and a variation that’s been well-known in a large-ish market since before SB existed. Seems… sloppy of them. 🙂 Well, the flat white (done correctly) requires a specific milk technique and a ristretto shot (which yields less coffee for the amount of beans used). Because it’s more of a specialist drink, I don’t think SB would want to deal with people complaining if it isn’t done perfectly. So presumably they had to upgrade the firmware in their robots. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-flat-white-a-fake-out/713222/13 "2015-02-21T21:39:20Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes. Even as a very devoted coffee-as-coffee aficionado, I really can’t tell the difference between the endless coffee+dairy variations, nor much care if I can. No, for full effect you have to say coffee _qua_ coffee.