# Is the Ft. Hood shooter a terrorist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478 "2009-11-13T20:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/81 "2009-11-15T00:15:57Z")
> [@intention](#): > > This is madness. Muslim armies have warred on other Muslim armies since there have been Muslims. How come the Muslim soldiers in those armies didn’t go on killing sprees to uphold the gentle nature of the Religion of Peace™? Iran and Iraq had one of the most bloody wars in recent history, millions of Muslims killed by other Muslims, and you want to claim with a straight face that Hasan was out of options? > > Although I greatly wish that there were, there is nothing in Islam that says Muslims can’t fight other Muslims. This is the most candy-assed excuse for Hasan that I have ever read. The “decision that a Muslim suicide bomber makes” is all too often to kill other Muslims, so your claim doesn’t make any sense at all. You missed a most significant point. Hassan was scheduled to be in the service of non Muslims killing Muslims. fighting for the great Satan. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/82 "2009-11-15T01:03:30Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You missed a most significant point. Hassan was scheduled to be in the service of non Muslims killing Muslims. fighting for the great Satan. Oh, I see. If you kill Muslims because you are in the Iraqi Army and you want to take over a Muslim country like Kuwait, that’s fine. But if you kill Muslims because you are in the Canadian Army and you are trying to stop Iraq from taking over a neighboring Muslim country like Kuwait, that’s a no-no. Have I got that right? I guess that makes as much sense as anything else Islamic … but it is hardly “significant”. As far as I know, the Koran doesn’t say “It’s OK to kill other Believers if you want their oil and money and land and you team up exclusively with other Muslims to kill them.” But I could be wrong. If “fighting for the Great Satan” is really the issue, you’d think he would have considered that before letting Satan pay for his medical school. Wasn’t like he hadn’t heard about the Gulf War, the US Army fighting Muslims wasn’t something that only happened after he signed up. He was happy to dance, but then when the bill came due he didn’t want to pay the piper … hardly a novel situation. So I still say that’s just an excuse. We’ve all heard stories about what happens when you sell your soul to Satan. So why would he expect anything different? ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/83 "2009-11-15T01:23:12Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You missed a most significant point. Hassan was scheduled to be in the service of non Muslims killing Muslims. fighting for the great Satan. That’s the thing that I don’t understand, particularly with all the people in this thread stating that they “understand” Hasan’s twisted logic. Hasan was ALREADY in the service of the US, fighting fanatics who happen to be Muslim. Whether he was at Walter Reed or Fort Hood or deployed in Afghanistan, his job is to indirectly support the war effort and be a combat multiplier for the combat arms troops who are actually doing the fighting. His core job functions wouldn’t change because his posting location changes. As a doctor and psychiatrist, he wouldn’t be carrying anything more than an M9 while deployed and that would only be for self-defense, not any kind of offensive combat missions. A conscientious objector status wouldn’t likely help him, since he wasn’t in a combatant role to begin with. And he can’t claim to object to all wars, since there isn’t a record to support that. Even if someone doesn’t believe that Hasan is a terrorist, his actions, particularly firing at a seemingly random group of people and soldiers, indicate he’s not a likely “postal” murderer either. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/84 "2009-11-15T04:54:42Z")
> [@Sidney Evgeni Jordan](#): > > The bolding above is mine. > > Aren’t you citing your own fantasy of what he was thinking? No, I’m citing what he actually said and did. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/85 "2009-11-15T04:59:04Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Oh, now I get it. For you, this not about about whether this is terrorism. It’s once again about Obama. I was being sarcastic. It’s pretty obvious to me that the reason some people are working so hard to label this psychotic as a “terrorist” is only so they can say that Obama allowed a terrorist attack. It’s about Obama for you guys on the far right, not for me. I was just mocking that attitude. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/86 "2009-11-15T05:13:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, I’m citing what he actually said and did. You haven’t provided a cite, so you are speculating rather than citing. Where did he say that his actions had nothing to do with Islam, as you claim? ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/87 "2009-11-15T05:19:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I was being sarcastic. It’s pretty obvious to me that the reason some people are working so hard to label this psychotic as a “terrorist” is only so they can say that Obama allowed a terrorist attack. It’s about Obama for you guys on the far right, not for me. I was just mocking that attitude. While that may be true of some people, I don’t care either way because I know that Obama, or Bush, or Abraham Lincoln could not prevent someone from picking up a gun and shooting a bunch of people. It’s easy to be wise after the fact. In my case, you are mocking a straw man. So your imagined motive is just that … imaginary. I think it was terrorism because I think he did it to try to prove a point, to make a statement, to force the Army to change the policy about Muslims. That is terrorism, no matter who is President. He wasn’t going postal to get revenge on the people he killed. He was making a point. Why do you think he shouted “Allahu akbar” if Islam “had nothing to do with it”? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/88 "2009-11-15T06:15:45Z")
I haven’t seen any proof that he shouted the takbir. Religious mania is a common symptom of mental illness – a _symptom_, not a cause. And it’s not a strawman to say that the right is desperately trying to demagogue this as a “terrorist attack” purely to try to score political points against Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/89 "2009-11-15T08:07:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s pretty broad. By these standards, any criminal at all is an “enemy.” > > _Al Qaeda_ is not a serious “adversary” or threat to the US, and we aren’t at war with them. Calling them national “enemies” would seem to stretch the definition quite a bit. > > But if _al Qaeda_ is an “enemy,” and hasan was acting in concert with them, then the attack on Ft. Hood was a legal act of war on a military target, and Hasan should be afforded the rights of a POW. In that case, and in particular if he wore a US military uniform when carrying out the attack, he might be considered a spy and subject to summary execution. I recall there were several small units of German soldiers who wore GI uniforms and spoke English and infiltrated behind the lines during the Battle of the Bulge. Several were caught and executed. It may well be that laws have changed since then… ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/90 "2009-11-15T08:59:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I haven’t seen any proof that he shouted the takbir. Proof? What would constitute “proof”? Do you think there is a video somewhere? In the absence of that, we’re left with eyewitness testimony. Here’s a report from that noted right-wing site, [michaelmoore.com](http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latest-news/gunman-fort-hood-shooting-maj-nidal-malik-hasan-shouted-allahu-akbar-deadly-attack) … > [@](#): > > **Gunman in Fort Hood shooting, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, shouted ‘Allahu Akbar’ before deadly attack** > > By Matthew Lysiak In Fort Hood, Tex., Robert F. Moore and Corky Siemaszko In New York / New York Daily News > > The gunman in the Fort Hood massacre hollered “Allahu Akbar!” before embarking on a bloody rampage that left more than a dozen dead, an onlooker told investigators. > “We do have a witness who reported that,” Col. John Rossi said Friday morning. > “Allahu Akbar” means “God is great” in Arabic. and from a [local TV news station](http://www.kbtx.com/local/headlines/69794777.html): > [@](#): > > **Ft. Hood Shooting Survivor Shares His Story** > > KILLEEN (November 11, 2009)-Fort Hood shooting victim, Spc. Logan Burnette, 24, > shared his story of survival Wednesday morning from Metroplex Hospital in Killeen. > > Burnette said he was sitting in the Soldier Readiness Center last Thursday when a gunman now identified as Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan walked in, shouted, “Allahu Akbar!” and then began firing into the crowd. > > The Arabic phrase translates to mean “God is great” in English. > > Burnette said he threw a chair at the gunman, who then fired, striking Burnette in the hip and abdomen. So are you calling Specialist Logan Burnette a liar based on some evidence? Or are you just making baseless claims? [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Religious mania is a common symptom of mental illness – a _symptom_, not a cause. [/QUOTE] Cite for symptom rather than cause? And more to the point, cite for the claim that Hasan has a “mental illness”? It’s a convenient claim, but I haven’t heard anyone make that claim other than in a general sense, that you’d have to be nuts to open fire on a bunch of innocent people. Well, either nuts or a Jihadist … and we do have plenty of evidence that he was that … from [ABC News](http://www.kbtx.com/local/headlines/69794777.html): > [@](#): > > **Major Hasan: Soldier of Allah; Many Ties to Jihad Web Sites** > > Officials Say Accused Fort Hood Shooter Used Multiple Hotmail, AOL Accounts for Overseas Contacts > > By RICHARD ESPOSITO, MARY-ROSE ABRAHAM and RHONDA SCHWARTZ > > United States Army Major Nidal Hasan proclaimed himself a “soldier of Allah” on private business cards he obtained over the Internet and kept in a box at his apartment near Fort Hood, Texas. > > Major Nidal Hasan’s private business card, which he obtained over the Internet and kept in a box at his apartment near Fort Hood, Texas. > > Hasan, the alleged perpetrator of last week’s fatal shootings in Fort Hood, TX, was charged Thursday with 13 counts of premeditated murder under Article 118 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which can carry a sentence up to death or life imprisonment. > > The cards make no mention of his military affiliation, but underneath his name he listed himself as SoA (SWT). SoA is commonly used on jihadist Web sites as the acronym for Soldier of Allah, according to investigators and experts who have studied such sites. SWT is commonly used by Muslims as an acronym for Subhanahu Wa Ta’ala, Glory to God. > > “He was making no secret of allegiances,” said former FBI agent Brad Garrett, an ABC News consultant. > > … > > U.S. officials and analysts told [ABCNews.com](http://ABCNews.com) today that Hasan used multiple e-mail addresses and screen names as he contacted several jihadist web sites around the world. > > In addition to his contacts with suspected al Qaeda recruiter Anwar al Awlaki in Yemen, authorities said there is evidence he contacted other radical sites and individuals, including some in Europe. > > On Hasan’s official Army personnel record, obtained by [ABCNews.com](http://ABCNews.com)., Hasan lists his e-mail address using the first name of Abduwall, instead of Nidal. Abduwalli, in Arabic, means “slave of” the great protector, or God. And you can say with a straight face that “Islam had nothing to do with it”??? Please. [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] And it’s not a strawman to say that the right is desperately trying to demagogue this as a “terrorist attack” purely to try to score political points against Obama. [/QUOTE] And I should care why? The question was whether it is or is not a terrorist attack, not what the right might do if it turns out to be a terrorist attack. Which is why it is a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/91 "2009-11-15T10:43:32Z")
> [@intention](#): > > You are right, it could be just a coincidence that he wanted the Army to make special rules for Muslims, and when they didn’t he killed as many Army personnel as he could. > > Or not … Yeah, you see, you said that he did what he did to make the army allow more Muslims to be COs, but what he did isn’t going to do that nor is it likely he meant for it to do that. But fuck it, right? Just keep saying different things each time I post and maybe eventually you’ll get shit so convoluted that nobody else will notice it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/92 "2009-11-15T15:12:58Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Proof? What would constitute “proof”? Do you think there is a video somewhere? > > In the absence of that, we’re left with eyewitness testimony. Here’s a report from that noted right-wing site, [michaelmoore.com](http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latest-news/gunman-fort-hood-shooting-maj-nidal-malik-hasan-shouted-allahu-akbar-deadly-attack) … > > and from a [local TV news station](http://www.kbtx.com/local/headlines/69794777.html): > > So are you calling Specialist Logan Burnette a liar based on some evidence? Or are you just making baseless claims? > > Cite for symptom rather than cause? And more to the point, cite for the claim that Hasan has a “mental illness”? It’s a convenient claim, but I haven’t heard anyone make that claim other than in a general sense, that you’d have to be nuts to open fire on a bunch of innocent people. Well, either nuts or a Jihadist … and we do have plenty of evidence that he was that … from [ABC News](http://www.kbtx.com/local/headlines/69794777.html): > > And you can say with a straight face that “Islam had nothing to do with it”??? Please. > > And I should care why? The question was whether it is or is not a terrorist attack, not what the right might do if it turns out to be a terrorist attack. Which is why it is a strawman. I’m sure that some people have convinced themselves they heard the takbir. Suggestion is a powerful thing, and memory is terribly unreliable, especially in stressful situations like that. The fact they they think they heard something is not evidence that they actually heard it. Eyewitness testimony is basically worthless as evidence, and at least one medic at the scene has said Hasan never spoke. Islam had nothing to do with it. If Islam _per se_ caused people to become spree killers, then all Muslims would be spree killers. Therefore Islam doesnot cause people to be spree killers. It’s pretty simple. This guy was just nuts, pure and simple, just like the insane people who think Jesus wants them to kill doctors or invade Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/93 "2009-11-15T16:01:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Islam had nothing to do with it. If Islam _per se_ caused people to become spree killers, then all Muslims would be spree killers. Therefore Islam doesnot cause people to be spree killers. It’s pretty simple. That’s pretty classically a strawman, there. You’re starting by trying to disprove the statement, “Islam had something to do with Maj. Hasan’s actions”, and you end up disproving the statement “Islam causes people to become spree killers.” It’s possible that the major’s Islam, along with other factors specific to him, led to his doing what he did. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/94 "2009-11-15T17:38:46Z")
No it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/95 "2009-11-15T17:40:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No it isn’t. Dio at his finest, reduced to “NO IT ISN’T NO IT ISN’T NA NA NA I CAN’T HEAR YOU”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/96 "2009-11-15T17:47:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No it isn’t. It’s certainly possible. People have killed other people or committed crimes in the name of religion before, and so religion was a contributing factor in those cases. I don’t know if it was in Major Hasan’s case; it may well not have been, but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible that it was. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/97 "2009-11-15T17:50:08Z")
Does Christianity cause people to kill doctors? You guys keep confusing a symptom of mental ilness (religious mania) for a cause. Religion doesn’t make people crazy. Crazy makes people into religious fanatics. The specific religion is utterly irrelevant, ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/98 "2009-11-15T17:51:12Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > Yeah, you see, you said that he did what he did to make the army allow more Muslims to be COs, but what he did isn’t going to do that nor is it likely he meant for it to do that. How do you know that it “isn’t going to do that”? Because I suspect that the next Muslim that stands up and says “I want to get CO status because I don’t want to fight Muslims”, the Army will pay a whole lot more attention to them than they did to Hasan … and that as a result, they will be less likely to be posted to Iraq or another Muslim area. Finally, you say “nor is it likely he meant for it to do that.” What do you think he meant for it to do? Serious question. PS - You say: > [@](#): > > But fuck it, right? Just keep saying different things each time I post and maybe eventually you’ll get shit so convoluted that nobody else will notice it. I didn’t realize I was supposed to say the same thing every time you post. I thought this was one of those “conversations”, you know, where people introduce new ideas and move from one topic to another. Although now that you mention it, I have noted that you tend to say the same thing each time regardless of how many opposing citations and ideas are presented, and Dio certainly is the king of just repeating “It is not” ad nauseum … ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/99 "2009-11-15T17:53:13Z")
You’re the one trying to make the assertion. Prove Islam had a fucking thing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/100 "2009-11-15T17:53:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Does Christianity cause people to kill doctors? > > You guys keep confusing a symptom of mental ilness (religious mania) for a cause. Religion doesn’t make people crazy. Crazy makes people into religious fanatics. The specific religion is utterly irrelevant, This is a perfect example of you just repeating yourself. You made this claim before. I asked for a citatation. You just say it again, as though you could prove your point through endless repetition. Boooring! Cite for Hasan having a “mental illness”? Cite for religion being unable to drive people crazy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478.md?page=6)