# Is the Ft. Hood shooter a terrorist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 13, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478 "2009-11-13T20:40:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/101 "2009-11-15T18:01:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re the one trying to make the assertion. Prove Islam had a fucking thing to do with it. Haven’t you been following the bouncing ball? I have provided various citations showing that Hasan was heavily involved in jihadic Islam. I have provided an eyewitness account that he shouted “Allahu Akbar”. I have provided information that he had business cards that didn’t mention he was in the army but gave his occupation as “Soldier of Allah”. I have provided evidence that al-Akwari, Hasan’s spiritual mentor, certainly thinks it has everything to do with Islam. And for bonus points, I provided citations showing that your definition of “enemy” wasn’t used by anybody but you. In fact, unlike you, who have provided absolutely nothing, I have provided citations for everything I have claimed. You do understand how this game works? Because it’s your turn … ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/102 "2009-11-15T18:10:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No. Just a criminal. I think of an “enemy” as someone who is actually an existential threat. Does anyone think _al Qaeda_ is going to be able to overthrow the Untited States? What in the world are you talking about? Was the United States not at war in Vietnam because there was no threat the USA could be overthrown? Nobody has had a shot at overthrowing the US government since 1812, so I guess that means we’ve been at peace for 200 years! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/103 "2009-11-15T18:15:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Does Christianity cause people to kill doctors? Christianity doesn’t cause people to kill doctors, but if you’re the type of person who’s already prone to violence against other people, then if you come to believe that abortion is a great moral evil and that you have a moral duty to stop it by any means necessary, that belief may focus your violence against doctors who perform abortions. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/104 "2009-11-15T18:26:09Z")
> [@intention](#): > > While that may be true of some people, I don’t care either way because I know that Obama, or Bush, or Abraham Lincoln could not prevent someone from picking up a gun and shooting a bunch of people. It’s easy to be wise after the fact. In my case, you are mocking a straw man. > > So your imagined motive is just that … imaginary. I think it was terrorism because I think he did it to try to prove a point, to make a statement, to force the Army to change the policy about Muslims. That is terrorism, no matter who is President. He wasn’t going postal to get revenge on the people he killed. He was making a point. Why do you think he shouted “Allahu akbar” if Islam “had nothing to do with it”? I read where survivors said he said nothing while he was shooting. He yelled nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/105 "2009-11-15T18:29:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Does Christianity cause people to kill doctors? Asked and [answered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11779069&postcount=74), move on … ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/106 "2009-11-15T18:34:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Eyewitness testimony is basically worthless as evidence, and at least one medic at the scene has said Hasan never spoke. **Dio** , given that you claim there is no credence in eyewitness testimony, why do you support your argument with the eyewitness testimony of the medic ? I await your response with baited breath. BTW, are medics on hand everywhere on the base in case of such an incident , and thus able to be present for the opening remarks of the shooter ? I doubt it. More likely, the medic arrived after the shooter was rendered unconscous. No wonder the medic can claim he never spoke. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/107 "2009-11-15T18:34:30Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I read where survivors said he said nothing while he was shooting. He yelled nothing at all. Since it is generally easier to overlook something than to make something up out of the whole cloth, my general rule of thumb is give more weight to the person who saw or heard something than to the person who saw or heard nothing. However, you could be right. Where did you read it, and who said it? I have provided a citation to the actual words of an actual person. Finally, whether he said “Allahu Akbar” or not, there is plenty of other evidence (cited upthread) that radical jihad made up a large portion of Hasan’s ideation. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/108 "2009-11-15T18:39:13Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > … I await your response with baited breath. … Minor pet peeve: it’s “bated” breath, from “abated”, meaning you are holding your breath waiting for his answer. I’m waiting too, but knowing Dio, I’m not holding my breath … it’s just another Dio claim, and his motto seems to be “Cite-free since 1973!” ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/109 "2009-11-15T18:42:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > … Eyewitness testimony is basically worthless as evidence … Yeah, that’s why they never, ever would even think of allowing it in a court of law … :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/110 "2009-11-15T18:56:54Z")
> [@intention](#): > > Minor pet peeve: it’s “bated” breath, from “abated”, meaning you are holding your breath waiting for his answer. Not to argue, but I couldn’t resist **Dio’s** _bait_ with that contradiction and I’ll bet he has an incredible answer for a response. ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/111 "2009-11-15T18:57:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’m sure that some people have convinced themselves they heard the takbir. Suggestion is a powerful thing, and memory is terribly unreliable, especially in stressful situations like that. The fact they they think they heard something is not evidence that they actually heard it. Eyewitness testimony is basically worthless as evidence, and at least one medic at the scene has said Hasan never spoke. > > Islam had nothing to do with it. If Islam _per se_ caused people to become spree killers, then all Muslims would be spree killers. Therefore Islam doesnot cause people to be spree killers. It’s pretty simple. > > This guy was just nuts, pure and simple, just like the insane people who think Jesus wants them to kill doctors or invade Iraq. Do you have a cite for your statement that at least one medic at the scene has said that Hasan never spoke? I’m not just giving you a hard time here. I have been trying to find confirmation of this in a reputable news source and I can’t find it. [NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120183526&ps=cprs) reported that “FBI investigators aren’t sure Hasan really did say those words before he started shooting,” but this isn’t an affirmative indication that eyewitness testimony is in dispute. It could merely mean that the investigation is ongoing. I did find that the [AP](http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/nation_world/69948777.html) and [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/13/AR2009111304215.html) reported yesterday and Friday that > [@](#): > > Army officials have said they believe Hasan acted alone when he jumped on a table with two handguns last week, shouted “Allahu akbar” and opened fire inside a building at Fort Hood. The 13 people killed included a pregnant soldier and at least three other mental health professionals. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/112 "2009-11-15T19:01:19Z")
Mother Jones has an article saying it . I also heard a witness on the radio say he heard no shouting at all. I know it would fit nicely into peoples preconceptions but I thing we should wait before we proclaim it actually happened. This is not Fox News yet. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/113 "2009-11-15T19:10:53Z")
[http://rofasix.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-happened-ft-hood.html](http://rofasix.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-happened-ft-hood.html) Eyewitness account and she heard the gun shots and did not hear a thing other than shooting. Lets not jump on that handy, dandy bandwagon so fast. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/114 "2009-11-15T19:24:02Z")
Is shouting “Allahu akbar” before going on a killing spree evidence of being a terrorist or just evidence of being Muslim? If it’s evidence of being a terrorist, why? ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/115 "2009-11-15T19:25:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Islam had nothing to do with it. If Islam _per se_ caused people to become spree killers, then all Muslims would be spree killers. Therefore Islam doesnot cause people to be spree killers. It’s pretty simple. > > This guy was just nuts, pure and simple, just like the insane people who think Jesus wants them to kill doctors or invade Iraq. Being nuts had nothing to do with it. If being nuts caused people to become spree killers, then all nuts would be spree killers. Therefore being nuts does not cause people to be spree killers. It’s pretty simple. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/116 "2009-11-15T19:46:44Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://rofasix.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-happened-ft-hood.html](http://rofasix.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-happened-ft-hood.html) Eyewitness account and she heard the gun shots and did not hear a thing other than shooting. > Lets not jump on that handy, dandy bandwagon so fast. Well, let’s see. The person posting the story says: > [@](#): > > Yet, no one could verify this was an actual 1st person eye witness account. and the account says: > [@](#): > > As I’m walking up to [the SRP building] the gunshots start. So on one hand, we have an unsigned account by an unknown person who was not an eyewitness to the start of the shooting, who wasn’t even in the building when the shooting started, who says nothing either way about “Allahu Akbar”… please tell me this is not your idea of a citation. On the other hand, I have cited a person with a name who was there when the shooting started and has the bullet wounds to prove it, and he says Hasan did yell “Allahu Akbar”. Your choice. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/117 "2009-11-15T19:56:26Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Is shouting “Allahu akbar” before going on a killing spree evidence of being a terrorist or just evidence of being Muslim? If it’s evidence of being a terrorist, why? It certainly doesn’t prove that the person was a terrorist. It does add to all the other evidence that Hasan was deeply into radical jihad. It does provide us with a clue as to what was on his mind. He didn’t shout “you bastards are putting mind altering poison in my Cheerios” or “Jim, you passed me over for promotion” … To me, and to US law, a terrorist is someone who uses violence or assassination to try to force people or the government to change their policies. Hasan wanted the Army to change its policies on Muslims serving in actions against Muslims. He warned of “adverse events” if they didn’t change the policy. He created an adverse event, shouting “Allahu Akhbar” as he killed people he didn’t even know. When I connect the dots, I get “terrorist trying to change Army policy”. However, if you have an alternate theory of why he killed all those folks, bring it on. He wasn’t looking for revenge on an individual, he wasn’t going postal to kill a supervisor who had done him wrong … so if he wasn’t trying to make a point of some kind, what was he doing? ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/118 "2009-11-15T19:56:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Mother Jones has an article saying it . I also heard a witness on the radio say he heard no shouting at all. I know it would fit nicely into peoples preconceptions but I thing we should wait before we proclaim it actually happened. This is not Fox News yet. Thank you for the cite. [This](http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/11/fort-hood-letter) may be the article that you are referring to (please correct me if I am wrong). I realize that this is Great Debates, but I wish it was possible to ask for a cite without people getting worked up about it. In my posts in this thread I have been saying that we do not yet know Hasan’s motivations or mental state at the time of the crime; for this reason I have not advocated for or against the “terrorism” issue. I am trying to evaluate the available evidence and I encourage others to do the same. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/119 "2009-11-15T19:58:31Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > [QUOTE=Diogenes the Repetitive] > Islam had nothing to do with it. If Islam per se caused people to become spree killers, then all Muslims would be spree killers. Therefore Islam doesnot cause people to be spree killers. It’s pretty simple. > > This guy was just nuts, pure and simple, just like the insane people who think Jesus wants them to kill doctors or invade Iraq. Being nuts had nothing to do with it. If being nuts caused people to become spree killers, then all nuts would be spree killers. Therefore being nuts does not cause people to be spree killers. It’s pretty simple. [/QUOTE] Oh, good, very good. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478/120 "2009-11-15T20:08:01Z")
> [@Sidney Evgeni Jordan](#): > > I realize that this is Great Debates, but I wish it was possible to ask for a cite without people getting worked up about it. In my posts in this thread I have been saying that we do not yet know Hasan’s motivations or mental state at the time of the crime; for this reason I have not advocated for or against the “terrorism” issue. I am trying to evaluate the available evidence and I encourage others to do the same. For what it’s worth, I agree with you. I don’t know why Hasan did what he did. I was just disagreeing with the denial of the possibility that it could have had something to do with his view of Islam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-ft-hood-shooter-a-terrorist/517478.md?page=7)