# Is The Gay Marriage Debate Over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472 "2014-05-02T00:00:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/181 "2014-05-03T05:51:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, you’re all bigots for opposing multiple marriage. You want to marginalize and exclude bisexuals. You might want to make sure what the people you are talking to believe before you make such statements. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/182 "2014-05-03T05:52:47Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I agree that that is bigotry to say “I won’t date anyone outside of X group”, just because. It’s a more benign form of it, it’s not like the same sex marriage issue where people are trying to stop people they don’t even know from relationships. (Let’s be honest, most people opposed to same sex marriage are opposed to people being gay at all). I don’t think that’s true at all. I lived in a time when most people were homophobic(wasn’t that long ago), but I just don’t think that’s true anymore today. Almost everyone has a gay relative or co-worker or friend now. It was easy to hate gays when the only ones you met were creepy old guys who hit on you as a teenager. Things have changed. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/183 "2014-05-03T05:54:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You might want to make sure what the people you are talking to believe before you make such statements. I expected that some would support it. I do myself. at the very least, I don’t support arresting polygamists in the absence of abuse. But I’m sure we both recognize that the vast majority of people aren’t there yet. Societies evolve. The point I’ve been making this whole time is that their evolution isn’t sped up through moral scolding. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/184 "2014-05-03T05:54:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t think that’s true at all. I lived in a time when most people were homophobic(wasn’t that long ago), but I just don’t think that’s true anymore today. Almost everyone has a gay relative or co-worker or friend now. It was easy to hate gays when the only ones you met were creepy old guys who hit on you as a teenager. Things have changed. I would like to agree with you, but experience tells me I can’t. I can’t present stats right now, but I’ve almost never met a person opposed to SSM that weren’t also opposed to gay couples in general for either religious or EWWW reasons. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/185 "2014-05-03T05:58:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I expected that some would support it. So, when you said we’re all bigots you meant that we’re not all bigots. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/186 "2014-05-03T06:00:34Z")
Do you know a lot of religious people? A few years ago, there was a guy, a young guy too, with a petition to ban same sex marriage in front of a grocery store. He was going on about the “gay agenda” and how they were recruiting new members by preying on our children and good God the ignorance just burned. But then there’s the people in my wife’s church, all African-Americans who know a thing or two about being discriminated against and marginalized, but their faith tells them clearly that homosexuality is sinful. They don’t hate their gay brothers and sisters, but they just can’t support legal or social recognition of their permanent relationships. Instead, they try to convert them to straight people. It’s stupid, but it’s not hateful. And I just don’t see most religious people changing on this. they’ll eventually come to accept SSM as a legal reality(thus the “terms of surrender”), but socially they’ll never regard a same sex marriage as equivalent to a traditional marriage. It’ll always be just a civil union to most religious people. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/187 "2014-05-03T06:02:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Instead, they try to convert them to straight people. > > It’s stupid, but it’s not hateful. It most certainly is hateful. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/188 "2014-05-03T06:02:20Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, when you said we’re all bigots you meant that we’re not all bigots. Got it. You’re a bigot because you tolerate bigots and support bigots for elective office. Well, you do that now with the SSM issue, so it applies to that too. That’s the other reason such talk is stupid: when 40% of Americans have a view you regard as “bigoted”, it’s not like you can disassociate yourself from them all. So you are left with the choice of being a hermit or tolerating them. Which in reality I’m sure you do, making your pose here just that: a pose. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/189 "2014-05-03T06:02:56Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > I would like to agree with you, but experience tells me I can’t. I can’t present stats right now, but I’ve almost never met a person opposed to SSM that weren’t also opposed to gay couples in general for either religious or EWWW reasons. It makes no sense for them to be otherwise. There is no good reason outside of bigotry to oppose SSM - the people who oppose it have been given the chance to present such a reason over and over in court and out of it, and failed to come up with anything that passes the laugh test. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/190 "2014-05-03T06:03:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Do you know a lot of religious people? A few years ago, there was a guy, a young guy too, with a petition to ban same sex marriage in front of a grocery store. He was going on about the “gay agenda” and how they were recruiting new members by preying on our children and good God the ignorance just burned. > > But then there’s the people in my wife’s church, all African-Americans who know a thing or two about being discriminated against and marginalized, but their faith tells them clearly that homosexuality is sinful. They don’t hate their gay brothers and sisters, but they just can’t support legal or social recognition of their permanent relationships. Instead, they try to convert them to straight people. > > It’s stupid, but it’s not hateful. And I just don’t see most religious people changing on this. they’ll eventually come to accept SSM as a legal reality(thus the “terms of surrender”), but socially they’ll never regard a same sex marriage as equivalent to a traditional marriage. It’ll always be just a civil union to most religious people. Yes, I do know a lot of religious people. To be honest, as a personal view, I consider grocery store guy to be nearly the same as the church people you mention. They may not express it as hate, but it has the same effect. You’re gay, that’s wrong. I don’t care where the sentiment comes from, it’s bigotry plain and simple. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/191 "2014-05-03T06:04:15Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It most certainly is hateful. Jesus. They don’t see it that way. And while I think conversion therapy is dumb, I’m not going to condemn the practice completely. A lot of religious gay folks seek out conversion therapy so they can get right with God. Sometimes they even feel it works. And I guess it does if you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/192 "2014-05-03T06:06:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It makes no sense for them to be otherwise. There is no good reason outside of bigotry to oppose SSM - the people who oppose it have been given the chance to present such a reason over and over in court and out of it, and failed to come up with anything that passes the laugh test. That’s because they were trying to make a legal argument, and you’re right: there is no good legal argument against SSM. There is also no good legal argument against multiple marriage. But there are legitimate arguments outside of the legal sphere. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/193 "2014-05-03T06:08:26Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Yes, I do know a lot of religious people. To be honest, as a personal view, I consider grocery store guy to be nearly the same as the church people you mention. They may not express it as hate, but it has the same effect. You’re gay, that’s wrong. I don’t care where the sentiment comes from, it’s bigotry plain and simple. It comes from the Bible. Don’t expect religious people to just chuck it, it’s never going to happen. Born again Christians especially are taught to pride themselves on being apart from an increasingly evil society. Calling them bigots just confirms their worldview: you are calling that which is good evil and that which is evil, good. I’ve found as a person who has been religious in the past that the best way is to remind people that we are all sinners, that most of us have engaged in fornication, and that God doesn’t consider one sin to be greater than another sin. If you’ve had sex out of wedlock, you’re a fornicator, just as the homosexual is a fornicator. You are no different. Plus, love your brother, hate the sin but not the sinner, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/194 "2014-05-03T06:08:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > You’re a bigot because you tolerate bigots and support bigots for elective office. Well, you do that now with the SSM issue, so it applies to that too. > > That’s the other reason such talk is stupid: when 40% of Americans have a view you regard as “bigoted”, it’s not like you can disassociate yourself from them all. So you are left with the choice of being a hermit or tolerating them. Which in reality I’m sure you do, making your pose here just that: a pose. You just make shit up constantly, don’t you? You said we were all bigots for being against multiple marriages and excluding bisexuals. Then, about-face time when you learned that not everyone was, and suddenly, you support it too! And I see on preview that you don’t condemn conversion therapy. You’re just full of contradictions… or something. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/195 "2014-05-03T06:10:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It comes from the Bible. Don’t expect religious people to just chuck it, it’s never going to happen. Born again Christians especially are taught to pride themselves on being apart from an increasingly evil society. Calling them bigots just confirms their worldview: you are calling that which is good evil and that which is evil, good. > > I’ve found as a person who has been religious in the past that the best way is to remind people that we are all sinners, that most of us have engaged in fornication, and that God doesn’t consider one sin to be greater than another sin. If you’ve had sex out of wedlock, you’re a fornicator, just as the homosexual is a fornicator. You are no different. Plus, love your brother, hate the sin but not the sinner, and all that. My brother is a pastor, I understand the argument quite well. If your religion says you can’t be gay, that’s on you. If you use it to say that I shouldn’t be, we have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/196 "2014-05-03T06:12:26Z")
I’m tolerant. That was once a virtue. I believe that a society which hounds certain views so that they are not expressed even though many believe them to not be a healthy society. I think that applies even to racism. I want to know how racist the average joe is, I don’t want to wonder. And we should call such views what they are when they cross that line, and when we’re SURE they cross that line, and we’re also sure that the view being expressed is outside the mainstream. If the view is mainstream, we need to change the view through education. Shouting them down doesn’t tell them they are wrong, it tells them they are right and the truth is too uncomfortable for other people to hear. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/197 "2014-05-03T06:17:21Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > My brother is a pastor, I understand the argument quite well. If your religion says you can’t be gay, that’s on you. If you use it to say that I shouldn’t be, we have a problem. The way I see it, it’s like eating pork or working on Sabbath. I don’t believe you should do those things, or at least I didn’t when I was a practicing Jew. When I see someone eating pork, I still get a little queasy. My wife, a Seventh Day Adventist, gets a little more than queasy and actually gets enraged when people do work too close to her on Sabbath(such as when the grass gets mowed at our complex, pisses her the hell off). But neither I nor she would question your right to sin. But we’re not going to say it’s not a sin either. Eating pork is a sin. Working on the Sabbath is a sin. Fornication is a sin. You’ll never get us to say it’s not, but you can make us respect your right to sin. Because you respect ours. I’ve eaten pork. I work on Sabbath right now. I’ve fornicated. I’d be a hypocrite to condemn you even if I was still religious. but it’s still a sin and will be regarded as one forever. I just hope that it will be classed in with all the other sins and not continue to be treated as extra sinful, which goes against everything Christians are supposed to believe about the nature of sin. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/198 "2014-05-03T06:20:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The way I see it, it’s like eating pork or working on Sabbath. I don’t believe you should do those things, or at least I didn’t when I was a practicing Jew. When I see someone eating pork, I still get a little queasy. My wife, a Seventh Day Adventist, gets a little more than queasy and actually gets enraged when people do work too close to her on Sabbath(such as when the grass gets mowed at our complex, pisses her the hell off). > > But neither I nor she would question your right to sin. But we’re not going to say it’s not a sin either. Eating pork is a sin. Working on the Sabbath is a sin. Fornication is a sin. You’ll never get us to say it’s not, but you can make us respect your right to sin. Because you respect ours. I’ve eaten pork. I work on Sabbath right now. I’ve fornicated. I’d be a hypocrite to condemn you even if I was still religious. > > but it’s still a sin and will be regarded as one forever. I just hope that it will be classed in with all the other sins and not continue to be treated as extra sinful, which goes against everything Christians are supposed to believe about the nature of sin. Perfect, take any view you like. To be honest, as long as you’re not doing things like opposing my legal right to marry, my right to not be fired from a job simply for being gay, being refused apartments or any of the other myriad things many religious people do (Many, not all) then we’re fine. It may be a sin because of what your religion teaches, but I honestly don’t care as long as you don’t put those expectations on me. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/199 "2014-05-03T06:20:43Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The way I see it, it’s like eating pork or working on Sabbath. I don’t believe you should do those things, or at least I didn’t when I was a practicing Jew. When I see someone eating pork, I still get a little queasy. My wife, a Seventh Day Adventist, gets a little more than queasy and actually gets enraged when people do work too close to her on Sabbath(such as when the grass gets mowed at our complex, pisses her the hell off). Then you’re both wound just a little too tightly. Which would explain an awful lot. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2014, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/200 "2014-05-03T06:39:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They don’t see it that way. And while I think conversion therapy is dumb, I’m not going to condemn the practice completely. A lot of religious gay folks seek out conversion therapy so they can get right with God. Sometimes they even feel it works. And I guess it does if you think it does. No, it doesn’t work no matter how hard people believe in it. It’s a good way of screwing them up emotionally and driving them to depression and suicide, though. > [@adaher](#): > > That’s because they were trying to make a legal argument, and you’re right: there is no good legal argument against SSM. There is also no good legal argument against multiple marriage. > > But there are legitimate arguments outside of the legal sphere. No, there aren’t. They’ve been asked to give such arguments again and again and failed. There are fairly good arguments against multiple marriage however. Perhaps not good enough, but far better than the opposition to same sex marriage has. > [@adaher](#): > > It comes from the Bible. In other words, it’s garbage. The inconsistently applied taboos of Iron Age barbarians. If you want to follow that nonsense that’s your own business until you hurt someone, but you have no right to demand other people submit to it. > [@adaher](#): > > Don’t expect religious people to just chuck it, it’s never going to happen. I don’t. Like the anti-interracial marriage racists, I expect them to die and not be replaced, or become too embarrassed to express their bigotry in public. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472.md?page=11)