# Is The Gay Marriage Debate Over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472 "2014-05-02T00:00:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/421 "2014-05-05T23:46:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. I would say that he had a world view that did not allow for one specific change of meaning. I would also note that nothing he said or did was disparaging of the people whom he failed to understand might marry. “Black people have so much natural rhythm!” “You know how good those Jews are with money!” “You’re Chinese? I’ll bet you’re really good at math!” None of those statements are, strictly speaking, disparaging. Would you say that they are also not racist? Do you think it would be incorrect to describe a person using one of those sentences in earnest as a bigot? > [@](#): > > And how many peoples’ opinions have you changed by calling them names? Millions. Assuming you mean the collective “you” there, of course. It’s been the consistent position of every major gay rights organization of the last two decades that opposition to SSM represents an intolerable form of bigotry. Despite the dire warning of well meaning straight people, like yourself, that such language was divisive and counter-productive, today more than half the country is in favor of marriage equality. Including noted former bigot and President of the United States, Barrack Obama. So, yeah, that whole “calling people bigots” thing? Works like a charm. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/422 "2014-05-05T23:48:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > He differed in opinion on one particular topic. That topic being, “Do homosexuals deserve the same rights in society as heterosexuals.” There’s something fundamentally defective in your definition of bigotry if saying bad things about a person makes you a bigot, but actively working to limit their legal rights does not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/423 "2014-05-05T23:53:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I guessed you were so eager to respond that you didn’t bother to grasp my original post to Miller. And his post, which I was directly responding to and quoted. (bolding mine) I read that post. Where was “this society” was defined as “American society?” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/424 "2014-05-06T00:19:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I read that post. Where was “this society” was defined as “American society?” What else do you think that **Miller** , a resident of the U.S., meant by “this society”? And why is that a fairer assumption than the one I made. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/425 "2014-05-06T00:34:10Z")
To answer the OP title, yes, the \*debate \*is over. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/426 "2014-05-06T03:07:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That topic being, “Do homosexuals deserve the same rights in society as heterosexuals.” Untrue. You perceive SSM as a right. I perceive SSM as a right. A person who does not recognize SSM as a reality does not perceive its denial as a denial of rights. > [@Miller](#): > > There’s something fundamentally defective in your definition of bigotry if saying bad things about a person makes you a bigot, but actively working to limit their legal rights does not. There is something defective in your definition of bigotry if you have to pretend that the object of your derision perceives the world in the same way that you do and you erroneously claim that he is “denying” a right regarding a reality that he does not even recognize exists. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/427 "2014-05-06T03:13:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Millions. > > Assuming you mean the collective “you” there, of course. It’s been the consistent position of every major gay rights organization of the last two decades that opposition to SSM represents an intolerable form of bigotry. Despite the dire warning of well meaning straight people, like yourself, that such language was divisive and counter-productive, today more than half the country is in favor of marriage equality. Including noted former bigot and President of the United States, Barrack Obama. > > So, yeah, that whole “calling people bigots” thing? Works like a charm. If you think that calling people bigots had anything to do with it, then I think you are seriously misled. Making sure that people understood the normalcy of homosexuality played a major role. The leadership of acceptance by many public figures played a role. Calling people names? Not so much. Aside from **jsgoddess** , I have never met a person who has changed their view who even mention bigotry in any context. I have never heard anyone say “I used to be bigoted or prejudiced until I was awakened to my error.” (Which is a statement I have heard from a number of people regarding racism.) Perhaps you are right. I do not see the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/428 "2014-05-06T03:18:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Untrue. You perceive SSM as a right. I perceive SSM as a right. A person who does not recognize SSM as a reality does not perceive its denial as a denial of rights. > > There is something defective in your definition of bigotry if you have to pretend that the object of your derision perceives the world in the same way that you do and you erroneously claim that he is “denying” a right regarding a reality that he does not even recognize exists. Hilarious. Does this go for every right? All I have to do is deny that someone has the right to life, property, freedom, and suddenly I’m not a bigot? In fact, I CAN’T be a bigot because I don’t perceive the denial as as a denial of rights? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/429 "2014-05-06T03:19:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Aside from **jsgoddess** , I have never met a person who has changed their view who even mention bigotry in any context. I have never heard anyone say “I used to be bigoted or prejudiced until I was awakened to my error.” (Which is a statement I have heard from a number of people regarding racism.) > > Perhaps you are right. I do not see the evidence. You asked someone if it would work on them. I said it worked on me, and now you say you don’t see the evidence. How very convenient. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/430 "2014-05-06T03:27:37Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You asked someone if it would work on them. I said it worked on me, and now you say you don’t see the evidence. > > How very convenient. Gah! I now see that what I read as “Aside to jsgoddess…” was “Aside from jsgoddess…” which is a huge difference. My apologies for my snarky response and reading failure. Stupid prepositions! For your real point, instead of my stupid bad reading, I think you’d be surprised how many people will come right out and say they used to be bigoted and/or prejudiced against gays. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/431 "2014-05-06T03:31:01Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You asked someone if it would work on them. I said it worked on me, and now you say you don’t see the evidence. > > How very convenient. You have provided anecdotal evidence. I accept that. The claim was that “millions” were changed by being threatened with a charge of bigotry. I do not see the evidence for that. I do not see public testimony from multiple people. I do not see studies, either by Gallup or sociologists. I have never personally heard a similar claim from any other person. You are the single personal testimony I have encountered to that point. I do not deny your history or claim that you are the only person ever to have that experience. I do not see the evidence that your experience matched that of the 27% of the people in the U.S. whose views changed between 1996 and 2012. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/432 "2014-05-06T03:58:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Because he bore no antagonism toward homosexuals. He did not disparage them. He did not treat them differently, much less more poorly than he treated heterosexuals. He differed in opinion on one particular topic. Opposing SSM is antagonistic to them, treating them differently, disparaging them and working to hurt them. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/433 "2014-05-06T04:00:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Opposing SSM is antagonistic to them, treating them differently, disparaging them and working to hurt them. To be fair, we don’t know that he was working to hurt us same sex couples. There’s a huge difference between disagreeing with and actively working to stop SSM. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/434 "2014-05-06T04:35:15Z")
I think any individual’s coming to accept gay marriage, as millions of people have come to do over the past five years or so, _includes_ a feeling of not wanting to be perceived as a bigot – one feels one’s personal opinions move more or less along with the surrounding society (local, regional, national, global…), and is relieved to find oneself still outside the now-expanded societal definition of what constitutes a “bigot” – but fear of being called a bigot has rarely, if ever, been the _sole_ reason for someone’s change in attitude, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/435 "2014-05-06T05:42:25Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > . . . fear of being called a bigot has rarely, if ever, been the _sole_ reason for someone’s change in attitude, I think. Fear of being called a bigot by someone you love, admire, trust, or respect can be more persuasive than any concern of being called a bigot by a stranger on a message board. If you call me a bigot, well, shrug. But if my sister calls me a bigot, that’s gonna hurt. If all my friends look at me funny and say, “Huh? You still haven’t figured that out?” I’m going to feel pretty dumb. But I do agree this sort of thing only works at the very tail end of a major consensus shift. When public opinion is evenly divided, then such name-calling doesn’t have much effect. When someone says “abortion is murder” I don’t feel the sting at all. When PETA says “meat is murder” most of us just laugh. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/436 "2014-05-06T09:31:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You have provided anecdotal evidence. I accept that. The claim was that “millions” were changed by being threatened with a charge of bigotry. I do not see the evidence for that. I do not see public testimony from multiple people. I do not see studies, either by Gallup or sociologists. I have never personally heard a similar claim from any other person. You are the single personal testimony I have encountered to that point. I do not deny your history or claim that you are the only person ever to have that experience. I do not see the evidence that your experience matched that of the 27% of the people in the U.S. whose views changed between 1996 and 2012. I used to have a bigoted view about SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/437 "2014-05-06T11:02:55Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > More nonsense; role models come from outside families as well as inside it. Yeah, I don’t get the “role model” argument, either. I have two parents, one of each gender, but my mother was not my sole role model for female behaviour and my father was not my sole role model for male behaviour. How _could_ they be, neither of them has the superhuman ability to represent all aspects of their particular gender. I had other adults in my life - other relatives, teachers, even characters on TV - which helped inform my views on gender roles and human roles in general. How do “role model” proponents feel about heterosexual couples where, for example, Daddy is in the Navy and away most of the time? Is that okay, or does Daddy have to be regularly present, role-modelling and such? ---
**Author:** ![BrightSunshine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@BrightSunshine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightSunshine)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/438 "2014-05-06T12:58:44Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Again, we start with the first precept that marriage is not an institution to simply make adults happy, but as one to bring biological children into the world. Implicit in that belief is that biological children are best served by a strong male role model who will paddle some ass when needed, and a strong female role model who will comfort, care, and kiss scratches when needed. > > Of course, that is the goal which will not be reached by many families. Dad might be a drunk asshole and be gone from the child’s life. Mom might be a prostitute or a drug addict. Either party might divorce the other. We accept these shortcomings as a fundamental consequence of freedom. > > What we don’t do is allow marriage to two people who by the very nature of their biology are incapable of having natural children. Two men or two women present a per se bar to the introduction of children into the world that is unlike anything presented by an opposite sex couple. Yes, an opposite sex couple may be infertile or elderly. We let those cases go for ease of administration. > > You have already stated your disagreement to this proposition. But your disagreement doesn’t transform the argument into bigotry. "Only white people should be allowed to vote, because white people have good moral character. Except some white people don’t, but we accept it as a fundamental consequence of freedom. Only white people should be allowed to vote, because white people have higher intelligence. Except some white people don’t, but we let those cases go for ease of administration." And you intend this as an example of not bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/439 "2014-05-06T13:06:06Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/440 "2014-05-06T13:26:58Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > "Only white people should be allowed to vote, because white people have good moral character. Except some white people don’t, but we accept it as a fundamental consequence of freedom. > > Only white people should be allowed to vote, because white people have higher intelligence. Except some white people don’t, but we let those cases go for ease of administration." > > And you intend this as an example of not bigotry? Not that I’m in a hurry to be yelled at for a bigot, but superior moral character and intelligence of white people is up for debate; the role of the sexes in mammalian reproduction is not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472.md?page=23)