# Is The Gay Marriage Debate Over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472 "2014-05-02T00:00:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/81 "2014-05-02T15:27:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What’s bugging me is that **we were content to have a normal political debate on the issue when SSM proponents were the minority** , but now that they are the majority, their attitude is that anyone who hasn’t figured it out by now is a Bad Person. [BILL COSBY] Riiiiiiggggghhhhtttt… [/BILL COSBY] [QUOTE=Jerry Falwell] I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say “you helped [the 9-11 Massacre] happen”. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Pat Robertson] It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. [/QUOTE] “Normal political debate”, ladies and gentlemen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/82 "2014-05-02T15:28:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, there is a legitimate reason to believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Maggie Gallagher herself has expressed it. > > Marriage isn’t for adult fulfillment and happiness. It’s a foundation for raising families. > > Now I understand that society’s view of marriage has evolved and now it is all about the adults and what THEY want. But there are many people of faith who still hold to the old view of what marriage is, and they are not bigots. > > Maggie Gallagher is not a bigot. Ross Douthat is not a bigot. Barack Obama was not a bigot pre-2012. Unless Maggie Gallagher is also against marriage for couples that have decided not to have children, then this excuse is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/83 "2014-05-02T15:29:10Z")
BTW, since we consider the issues equivalent, here’s what Gallup found about the interracial marriage issue over the years: > **[Most Americans Approve of Interracial Marriages](https://news.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx)** > > According to a recent Gallup Poll, 77% of Americans say they approve of marriages between blacks and whites. This includes the vast majority of whites and blacks, but blacks are much more likely than whites to approve of interracial marriages. Public... It wasn’t until 1997 that a majority approved of interracial marriage. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/84 "2014-05-02T15:31:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless Maggie Gallagher is also against marriage for couples that have decided not to have children, then this excuse is bullshit. There was once a time when being a childless couple carried a stigma, and it wasn’t that long ago. There is nothing wrong with a person believing that the purpose of marriage is to provide a stable structure for the raising of a family. The fact that not all married couples start families does not mean that the view isn’t reasonable. I’m not even religious, and even I find this idea that marriage is about the adults to be stupid and infantile, but why complain about it? Straight people devalued marriage to near worthlessness, long before gays wanted to get married. That’s just the “me” generation at work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/85 "2014-05-02T15:32:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, since we consider the issues equivalent, here’s what Gallup found about the interracial marriage issue over the years: > > [http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx) > > It wasn’t until 1997 that a majority approved of interracial marriage. Got a Gallop poll handy that’s on-topic? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/86 "2014-05-02T15:36:37Z")
Since we’re comparing opposition to same sex marriage to opposition to interracial marriage, it’s quite on topic. Unless you agree with me that such comparisons are ridiculous, of course. Which they are. There is no accepted definition of marriage that ever required a couple to be of the same race. The idea that marriage is between a man and a woman though, has existed for thousands of years. Now maybe you think that our generation is oh so much wiser than ALL of the other ones that came before us, and what’s more, we’re so much more enlightened, but I think a little more humility is in order here. Marriage was established for a reason and it wasn’t so that two people could find happiness. Heck, real traditional marriage often had nothing to do with love at all! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/87 "2014-05-02T15:37:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There was once a time when being a childless couple carried a stigma, and it wasn’t that long ago. > > There is nothing wrong with a person believing that the purpose of marriage is to provide a stable structure for the raising of a family. The fact that not all married couples start families does not mean that the view isn’t reasonable. I don’t recall there being _any_ campaigns designed to limit the rights of couples that were childless by choice, so don’t even try to compare that with this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/88 "2014-05-02T15:39:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Since we’re comparing opposition to same sex marriage to opposition to interracial marriage, it’s quite on topic. > > Unless you agree with me that such comparisons are ridiculous, of course. Which they are. There is no accepted definition of marriage that ever required a couple to be of the same race. The idea that marriage is between a man and a woman though, has existed for thousands of years. > > Now maybe you think that our generation is oh so much wiser than ALL of the other ones that came before us, and what’s more, we’re so much more enlightened, but I think a little more humility is in order here. Marriage was established for a reason and it wasn’t so that two people could find happiness. Heck, real traditional marriage often had nothing to do with love at all! And sometimes we just rode into the neighboring village, killed all the males and took the females. You’re right-we are no more enlightened nowadays. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/89 "2014-05-02T15:40:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Marriage isn’t for adult fulfillment and happiness. It’s a foundation for raising families. Thank you for finally coming around to support SSM, so that gay people can now raise their families with an appropriate foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/90 "2014-05-02T15:46:07Z")
What we’re seeing here is the real proof that this debate is functionally over in the U.S. Instead of arguing against SSM, former/current SSM opponents are putting all their energy into arguments that boil down to ‘Don’t blame me for my actions and opinions. It wasn’t so obvious that I was wrong! Can’t we just forget this whole thing?’ If you were wrong, just admit you were wrong, learn, and move on. This is just whining. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/91 "2014-05-02T15:51:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What we’re seeing here is the real proof that this debate is functionally over in the U.S. Instead of arguing against SSM, former/current SSM opponents are putting all their energy into arguments that boil down to ‘Don’t blame me for my actions and opinions. It wasn’t so obvious that I was wrong! Can’t we just forget this whole thing?’ If you were wrong, just admit you were wrong, learn, and move on. This is just whining. Exactly. What we are seeing from Gallagher and the like isn’t an admission that they were wrong-it’s a realization that currently they don’t have the public support they crave. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/92 "2014-05-02T15:52:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, there is a legitimate reason to believe marriage is between a man and a woman. Maggie Gallagher herself has expressed it. That’s all well and good, but her legitimate reasons to believe marriage is between a man and a woman are not legitimate reasons to prevent same-sex couples from getting the right to marry. > [@](#): > > Marriage isn’t for adult fulfillment and happiness. It’s a foundation for raising families. Whether this is true or not, it’s irrelevant to the SSM debate. > [@](#): > > Now I understand that society’s view of marriage has evolved and now it is all about the adults and what THEY want. But there are many people of faith who still hold to the old view of what marriage is, and they are not bigots. Even people’s views and personal definitions of what marriage is really has nothing to do with the SSM debate. What matters is what the law allows, not what people believe. I don’t care if you don’t believe gay marriage is “real marriage”, as long as you don’t fight that it should be legal. > [@](#): > > Maggie Gallagher is not a bigot. Ross Douthat is not a bigot. Barack Obama was not a bigot pre-2012. Who the hell knows what goes on inside anyone’s head. I try not to call people bigots or racists. But, just as opposing interracial marriage is a bigoted thing to do, opposing SSM is a bigoted thing to do. Gallagher, Douthat, and pre-2012 Obama all supported bigotry in their opposition to SSM. So did I, 15 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/93 "2014-05-02T15:54:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t recall there being _any_ campaigns designed to limit the rights of couples that were childless by choice, so don’t even try to compare that with this. I’m distinguishing between a legal framework and a cultural framework. In terms of legality, SSM is going to be a reality, perhaps through the judicial system, because marriage is what it is now and you’re right, it’s unfair to exclude gays given what marriage actually is in this day and age: an institution for the fulfillment of adults. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/94 "2014-05-02T15:56:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > BTW, since we consider the issues equivalent, here’s what Gallup found about the interracial marriage issue over the years: > > [http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx) > > It wasn’t until 1997 that a majority approved of interracial marriage. And yet in 1996 someone who voiced opposition to interracial marriage would have been (correctly) called a bigot. I don’t see how this helps your case. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/95 "2014-05-02T15:58:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m distinguishing between a legal framework and a cultural framework. In terms of legality, SSM is going to be a reality, perhaps through the judicial system, because marriage is what it is now and you’re right, it’s unfair to exclude gays given what marriage actually is in this day and age: an institution for the fulfillment of adults. What marriage is now is irrelevant. It would also be unfair to exclude gays if marriage was/is an institution for raising families. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/96 "2014-05-02T15:58:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What we’re seeing here is the real proof that this debate is functionally over in the U.S. Instead of arguing against SSM, former/current SSM opponents are putting all their energy into arguments that boil down to ‘Don’t blame me for my actions and opinions. It wasn’t so obvious that I was wrong! Can’t we just forget this whole thing?’ If you were wrong, just admit you were wrong, learn, and move on. This is just whining. I was going to get to that too.🙂 There are three aspects to the debate: 1. Should SSM be legal? The consensus is now clearly yes. The anti side has lost. Most of them, like Gallagher and Douthat, know it. 2. When and how do we make SSM legal and how long should people be given to get on board? That debate is still in progress, given that in most states, SSM is not a reality. But within 10 years, I think it will be in all 50 states. 3. If you don’t support SSM, are you a Bad Person, as bad as a racist? That debate is just getting started, and I think that in the end the crazies will lose that one. SSM is NOT actually a civil rights issue, and if for no other reason than the sake of not pissing off the entire freaking world, it would be nice if we weren’t boycotting the 150 nations that do not have SSM. Or calling them “poopy-heads”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/97 "2014-05-02T15:59:09Z")
Even if marriage were a legal institution for making tasty hot dogs it would be unfair and discriminatory to exclude gay couples. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/98 "2014-05-02T16:00:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Got a Gallop poll handy that’s on-topic? I haven’t had any luck finding a Gallup poll that’s on-topic (i.e. specifically directed to the question of whether racial marriage should be illegal). I’ve found some more limited non-Gallup cases (e.g. [the one where 46% of GOP voters in Mississippi](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/interracial-marriage-illegal-46-mississippi-republicans-new-poll-article-1.111449) express the view that interracial marriage ought to be banned). Sorry, Maggie; sorry, **adaher** – I am not going to be “civil” and withhold my scorn and contempt for the people taking this view. > [@Marley23](#): > > What we’re seeing here is the real proof that this debate is functionally over in the U.S. Instead of arguing against SSM, former/current SSM opponents are putting all their energy into arguments that boil down to ‘Don’t blame me for my actions and opinions. It wasn’t so obvious that I was wrong! Can’t we just forget this whole thing?’ If you were wrong, just admit you were wrong, learn, and move on. This is just whining. Having lost the substantive debate, their fallback position is an attempt to prevent the Overton Window from being shifted out from under them, to the point where their cause goes the way of Free Silver and Fifty-Four-Forty-Or-Fight. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/99 "2014-05-02T16:01:04Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > And yet in 1996 someone who voiced opposition to interracial marriage would have been (correctly) called a bigot. I don’t see how this helps your case. Ah, so the second it becomes the majority view, the minority are bigoted? And not before? Because that’s exactly what’s going on with the gay marriage issue. As soon as the polls hit 50% and the President got on the right side, the knives came out. I wonder where all this self-righteous courage was back in 2004 or 2008? Strangely, it was nowhere to be seen. Probably because most of the people you would have liked and respected back then did not support SSM/=. Now that you’ll pay no price for being a dick to those who disagree with you, now you can get on your high horse. BTW, when I"m saying, “you”, I’m not necessarily referring to you personally, just all those posters(and celebrities) who have seriously ramped up the hostile rhetoric since that magic moment in 2012. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/100 "2014-05-02T16:02:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Even if marriage were a legal institution for making tasty hot dogs it would be unfair and discriminatory to exclude gay couples. That is a logical view. However, holding illogical views does not make one bigoted. Everyone holds illogical views on something or other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472.md?page=6)