# Is The Gay Marriage Debate Over? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472 "2014-05-02T00:00:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/121 "2014-05-02T16:40:31Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But where that falls apart is the feigned ignorance of one huge distinction: same sex couple are not naturally capable of producing children. And child-rearing was historically THE reason that society recognized pair bonding. It wasn’t child-rearing. It was a combination of child rearing, ensuring paternity, and division of property. And again, gay couples can have children. They can’t have biological children without some assistance, but unless they’re medieval monarchs and we’re worried about a war for the throne, that doesn’t strike me as a big deal. > [@](#): > > People against miscegenation never claimed that mixed couples couldn’t have kids; just that it was socially undesirable. Or that god didn’t want it to happen. “Socially undesirable” is a very meek euphemism for something people were murdered over. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > When he was against SSM he was saying bigoted things and, if the things he said were indicative of his mental state, he was a bigot. This isn’t gay rocket science. They were indicative of political posturing, not his mental state. [He said he supported same-sex marriage in 1996](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/13/obama-once-supported-same_n_157656.html), and his statements about his “evolving” views were pretty obviously intended to reflect the question until it was advantageous to say he supported SSM. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/122 "2014-05-02T16:42:25Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But where that falls apart is the feigned ignorance of one huge distinction: same sex couple are not naturally capable of producing children. And child-rearing was historically THE reason that society recognized pair bonding. Actually, THE reason was property transfer by multiple means. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/123 "2014-05-02T16:43:12Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But where that falls apart is the feigned ignorance of one huge distinction: same sex couple are not naturally capable of producing children. Yes they are, though not together. Many gay couples raise children that are biological the children of one of the parents. > [@](#): > > And child-rearing was historically THE reason that society recognized pair bonding. It was certainly one of them, but certainly not the only one. > [@](#): > > People against miscegenation never claimed that mixed couples couldn’t have kids; just that it was socially undesirable. People against SSM routinely claim that it is socially undesirable for gay couples to have/raise children. > [@](#): > > You may disagree with that assessment but it certainly has historical validity. Except for all the stuff you got wrong and left out, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/124 "2014-05-02T16:44:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > The comparisons to interracial marriage are just question begging; I’ve never seen a decent argument as to how the two are the same. I can’t for the life of me see how they are different. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/125 "2014-05-02T16:46:27Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Why is that so? Two people (brother and sister) love each other in a sexual way and wish to form a life-long loving relationship. You say they cannot marry each other and it is “insulting” to compare it to SSM? Is it because you personally find it immoral or disgusting? You’re free to present an argument for incest-marriage, but it has nothing to do with SSM. You can even frame it and compare it to SSM if you like, just as we do for interracial marriage. But it changes nothing with regards to the arguments for or against SSM. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/126 "2014-05-02T16:48:13Z")
For me to give an opinion on the value of incest-marriage, I’d have to hear from a couple who was denied marriage by law. That’s how I was convinced to support SSM – by actually engaging with gay couples. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/127 "2014-05-02T16:53:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx](http://www.gallup.com/poll/28417/Most-Americans-Approve-Interracial-Marriages.aspx) > > It wasn’t until **1997** that a majority approved of interracial marriage. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > And yet in **1996** someone who voiced opposition to interracial marriage would have been (correctly) called a bigot. I don’t see how this helps your case. > [@adaher](#): > > Ah, so the second it becomes the majority view, the minority are bigoted? And not before? 😕 😕 :smack: :smack: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/128 "2014-05-02T16:53:54Z")
When the dead hand of tradition means you’re treating people badly just because you always have before, then it’s time for that tradition to die. As with polygamous folk, the consensual incestuous couples are welcome to make their case to society, but there’s no real logical connection to SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/129 "2014-05-02T16:54:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > They should receive the same consideration the 90% of people who support same sex marriage now but didn’t 20 years ago received. I’m giving them exactly the same consideration today, that I gave the 90%\* twenty years ago. 90% of Americans were bigots about gay rights twenty years ago. Now, it’s somewhat less than 50%. We got from there to here using the exact same tactics you’re trying to convince us are misguided: calling out obvious bigotry for what it is, and not letting its proponents weasel out of it. Also, big lolz to homophobes calling for “respect” on this issue. The hallmark of the anti-marriage movement has always been lies and character assassination. Nice to see that they suddenly care about “respect” when they realize that they’re the minority for a change, but no dice. I’m going to show them the exact level of respect they have, historically, shown me: absolutely none at all. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/130 "2014-05-02T16:55:36Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > 😕 😕 :smack: :smack: :smack: He gets this wrong as he does everything else. Bigoted beliefs aren’t bigoted because they’re a minority view. Bigoted beliefs are bigoted because they’re bigoted, regardless of how many people hold them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/131 "2014-05-02T16:58:07Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > 😕 😕 :smack: :smack: :smack: He does have a documented history of not being able to tell the smaller number from the bigger number, so I guess this error isn’t really all that surprising. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/132 "2014-05-02T17:20:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You’re free to present an argument for incest-marriage, but it has nothing to do with SSM. You can even frame it and compare it to SSM if you like, just as we do for interracial marriage. > > But it changes nothing with regards to the arguments for or against SSM. What’s funny is his argument about kids is he’s actually comparing interracial marriage to incest. His big weapon against SSM is the inability to have kids. That’s not a problem with incest. And he’s already said that society feeling it’s unwise isn’t enough to prevent interracial kid-having. Voila. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/133 "2014-05-02T17:31:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t recall there being _any_ campaigns designed to limit the rights of couples that were childless by choice, so don’t even try to compare that with this. Then I suggest you look into the history of inheritance law. Widows without children often had to fight for the right to inherit their dead husband’s property. Even now without an ironclad will (and sometimes even with one) a widow or widower may have to battle offspring that resulted from the non-marital relationships of their deceased spouses. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/134 "2014-05-02T17:34:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Now maybe you think that our generation is oh so much wiser than ALL of the other ones that came before us, and what’s more, we’re so much more enlightened, but I think a little more humility is in order here. Marriage was established for a reason and it wasn’t so that two people could find happiness. Heck, real traditional marriage often had nothing to do with love at all! Don’t you think this is a good thing, that we have changed our notions of marriage? Do you dream of the days when couples were forced into loveless marriages as a means of property transfer, settling scores, political machinations, etc…? Setting aside the absolute horrors that women have suffered for millennia under these conditions, why would you look at that time with nostalgia, let alone for guidance??? 😕 Thank God I was born in this time, in this country. Thank God I have the opportunities that I do. And I will fight to my dying breath for each and every human on this planet to have the same opportunities as me, despite their sex, race, religion, or sexual orientation. There is no historic or traditional principle I am so beholden to, that I would not give it up if it is being used as a justification to discriminate. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/135 "2014-05-02T18:15:40Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Then I suggest you look into the history of inheritance law. Widows without children often had to fight for the right to inherit their dead husband’s property. Is that something that goes on in the US now or in recent memory? > [@](#): > > Even now without an ironclad will (and sometimes even with one) a widow or widower may have to battle offspring that resulted from the non-marital relationships of their deceased spouses. That’s a situation of competing inheritance rights. Those children have the right to inherit from their parent. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/136 "2014-05-02T18:16:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That is a logical view. However, holding illogical views does not make one bigoted. Everyone holds illogical views on something or other. Illogical views can be bigoted. You don’t get to claim ignorance in defense of bigotry. If I hold the illogical view that blacks aren’t capable of understanding calculus. I’m still a bigot even though I believe that out of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/137 "2014-05-02T18:45:48Z")
The entire “you can’t call me a bigot” argument in this case boils down to, “I don’t like the term bigot, and therefore it doesn’t apply to me, even though my thoughts and/or actions are in fact bigoted.” OK, sparky. “I’m not racist; I just don’t think that black people should be treated equally in our society. That doesn’t make me a bigot, or hateful. I don’t hate black people. Some of my friends are black! It just seems obvious to me that because black people have always been treated as inferiors in our society, that should continue, for the sake of tradition. Stop calling me a bigot just because I am for tradition and moral values.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/138 "2014-05-02T18:57:55Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > The entire “you can’t call me a bigot” argument in this case boils down to, “I don’t like the term bigot, and therefore it doesn’t apply to me, even though my thoughts and/or actions are in fact bigoted.” Yep. We see this play out again and again on this board (as in off-board life). “What X does is what I do, so X can’t be a bigot because that would make me a bigot and I’m a good person.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/139 "2014-05-02T19:03:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > All I’m asking is, is it okay to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman or is this belief beyond the pale? You can believe the moon is made of purple leprechauns, for all anyone cares - just don’t have your belief written into law. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472/140 "2014-05-02T20:09:11Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > Is that something that goes on in the US now or in recent memory? > > That’s a situation of competing inheritance rights. Those children have the right to inherit from their parent. I know people right now battling it out (thankfully through legal channels) with their deceased spouses’ siblings and other family members. And children excluded from a will have no more right to inherit than dogs have a right to inherit from their owners. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-gay-marriage-debate-over/687472.md?page=8)