Is the Gun Control Battle Over?

It ought to be pretty obvious from the above that not only is the debate not over, we even have a debate about what it is the debate about. There seem to be a determined preconception on the part of the “cold dead hands” set that anyone who thinks that there ought to be some regulation of firearms in intent on general disarmament of the civilian population --the mantra is gun control advocates want to ban guns. It has been bald faced so asserted in this thread. The mantra has been repeated again and again in nearly every popular hunting and fishing magazine I see at the local barber shop. It is howled from the publications of the NRA and from their speakers platform. It is, of course a gross misstatement of what responsible gun control people have argued for and is likewise a misstatement of the position taken by gun control people on this board. Don’t let that stop anyone, however. As we have all seen before it is much more satisfying to take pot shots at a straw man than to deal with a live target. Only this evening the national network news gave me a four second sound bite of Charlton Heston (and all sympathy and good wishes to the poor man, what is likely to happen to him and his family should not happen to anyone) waiving what looked like a Hawkins cap and ball rifle and intoning “my cold dead hands.”

Ultimately the debate is political and being political big money (i.e., gun and ammo manufacturers and distributors) will prevail until a crises arises that convinces the general electorate that some steps must be taken to keep the most dangerous and deadly sorts of guns out of irresponsible hands. Sooner or later that day will come. Polemics about supposed Constitutional rights and defense of the home and pretended historical traditions may delay that day, but just a surely as the sun rise and the tide flows the day will come that hand guns are licensed and magazine capacity is restricted.

Cite on smuggling terrorists into the country via container ships? I know you don’t have one, of course, but I issue the challenge just for the formality of GD.

Moreover, they’d be damn stupid to do that anyway. Why ship an assault rifle halfway across the world, then take a chance on getting it past some pretty heavily screened national borders, when you can buy the same firepower at Gun World for a measley $500, then have John Ashcroft personally shred the records of the purchase?

Hmmm, save $400 and run a substantial risk of ruining Operation Shoot a Bunch of Infidels, or spend spend an extra $400 and buy what we need with the approval of the infidel Attorney General? Tough call.

No, I don’t have one cite. I have several hundred. Just put “container ship terrorists” into your local search engine.

Learn, then speak. There is virtually no risk.

Somehow, I really doubt you’ll be able to just waltz on down to a gunshop and buy large quantities of full-auto Kalashnikovs for just $500 a pop.

Beagle, your first two cites talk only of possibilities and random people who have entered through ships illegally–no evidence whatsoever that any of them have been terrorists. It’s worth noting that pretty much every known al Qaeda terrorist to have been arrested in the U.S. entered through the normal channels, with visas.

Your third cite is of unknown veractity, cites no specific, credible facts, and generally strikes me as paranoid and unreliable. Sheesh, how 'bout some real news sources?

Finally, who cares? The point is that the bad guys can buy serious guns here through legitimate sources with no serious legal impediments, and Ashcroft doesn’t want law enforcement to be able to check the records of those purchases. Hooray for law and order and fighting terrorism and apple pie, right?
Phoenix Dragon, who needs “large quantities”? One each will do the job quite nicely.

Dianne Feinstein

Not one cite, eh? Now it is credibility. I guess all those aliens are assuredly not terrorists. Care to bet on that?

Are you even going to search?

No of course they are not going to search. :::: sheesh ::::

U.S. Customs thinks the risk is worth mentioning. Chuck Schumer.
CNN documents the risks. Then we have the U.S. Navy via the Washington Times and High Frontier.org.

So, it seems pretty clear to me, and every other sentient person on the planet, that Al Qaeda uses shipping containers to get around and move their stuff. I guess your argument is that they would not do this to get into the U.S. Cite?

Do I need to point out that full automatic weapons are illegal in the U.S.? They are dirt cheap in Afghanistan, Pakistan, basically all the “Stans.” Why buy an inferior, more expensive, lower capacity weapon here? The security risk of loss in a shipping container appears to be around 2%. Now calculate the risk of loss if a terrorist with questionable identification goes into any gun store in the U.S. with a shopping list of military style weapons. My guess, much higher than 2%.

CNN reports new port security measures are hush hush.

This should pretty much seal the deal. Bob Graham says I am right.

minty, if you’re going to nit-pick and challenge cites, then I challenge you for a cite of John Ashcroft personally shredding records of assault rifle purchases.

Now let me post something in your “defense”, as it were - you are aware that sales between private individuals are, in many States and regions, almost completely unregulated whatsoever, with no paperwork requirement, correct? For example - if I want to sell my AR15 to a friend at work, all I need is money. I am not required, nor is there even a means available to me, to do a background check, a criminal record check, a fitness check, and there is no paperwork or application process. I simply hand him the weapon.

It is most likely that a terrorist is simply going to pick up the paper in a few large cities, note the people selling AR15’s, MAK-90’s, or real AK-47s, go out and buy it from them personally as a cash sale, and walk away. They are not likely to involve the Attorney General or the Great Satan in Clouds of Sulphur, the Evil Gun Show.

In fact - the KC Star just 3 days ago had at least 3 guns that classified very clearly as “assault rifles”, for a total cost of $2900 or so. No paperwork, checks, no records, no Attorney General required.

I could ignore this “loophole”, as it is called by gun control supporters, but that would be dishonest. The terrorists have many ways to get weapons, here and abroad.

Or, they could smuggle them in from Mexico, if they want the “real” assault weapons (G3’s, full-auto Uzis, Steyr AUGs, etc). And although I cannot find a cite, I am certain a few shipments of Chinese AK-47s have been intercepted in California in cargo containers (although sans terrorists).

  • I do not agree at all with the term “loophole”, as a loophole implies an exception to legislation which is intended to show particular favor or favoritism to a certain group, based on a quid pro quo or as a means to pandering to them. Private transfers of firearms existed in this country long before the “yellow form” FFL process was created in 1968.

But the pro-gun posters here are more bothered by every minor inaccuracy in statements by gun-control groups.

Unlike tobacco and a host of other issues, I’ve never seen any evidence that corporate money, from gun manufacturers or elsewhere, is propping up the pro-gun side of this debate.

Both sides of this debate, AFAICT, are fueled by the attitudes and passions of different portions of the citizenry, not by corporate money. That’s how democracy’s supposed to work, and on this issue, it seems to actually be working like that.

loop·hole n. 1. A small hole or slit in a wall, especially one through which small arms may be fired. 2. A way of escaping a difficulty; especially, an omission or an ambiguity, as in the wording of a contract or law, that provides a means of evasion.
American Heritage Dictionary, 1973.

But you see, I only said what a loophole implies, not what it is defined as in the dictionary. I think my usage of it, while it does not agree directly with your source, is a common one that is easily recognizeable and commonly applied (incorrectly or otherwise) by both sides of the debate.

In reference to the long-forgotten OP, it should be clear from the preceding that the national debate over gun control has been essentially unaffected by 9/11. I would suggest further that anyone with a basic understanding of its nature wouldn’t even wonder.

Well, surely, if prosecutors have insufficient time and resources to prosecute existing laws, surely additional laws are the last thing we need. Thanks for making the pro-gun side’s point for them! :smiley:

Hyperbole of course. He just issued the rule that says the FBI couldn’t look at records of failed background checks. And if you want to do the sensible thing and help end private sales w/o background checks (which really is absolutely insane), I’d be glad to see you join the gun control cause on that point.

Beagle, I’m aware that terrorists could enter the country via ships. Most of that stuff simply says they could do so, not that they have done so. I’ll give you points for the Italy incident, and partial credit for Bob Graham. Of course, there’s no actual evidence those 25 guys were actually terrorists, but at least it’s something. Note that they don’t appear to have jumped ship with cheap Afghani AK47’s though.

This is argumentative at the least, as it implies that if I do not agree with your position, then I am not sensible, and that my viewpoint is insane.

We can talk about private sales, but it seems you might be holding private sales to a higher standard than dealer sales, as I don’t believe purchases of long guns are required to have a backround check in most jurisdictions. I think it mainly applies to handguns (on a National level). So if we want to be most accurate, is your position that you would like to see parity in the restrictions?

The aspect of Private Sales having more “rights” in some cases is a long-standing one in this country, and one which has many parallels in the law - or more correctly, in omission from the law.

For example - in some jurisdicitons (such as Missouri, or at least KCMO, I do not know if it applies to the entire State) all car dealers are required to do a vehicle safety inspection and certification before they can complete a transaction. Whereas an individual does not have that burden (I’ve purchased two cars from individuals in Missouri, and one from a dealer). Now, I’m not equating dangerousness of cars with guns here, that’s a whole separate argument I don’t normally feel comfortable doing.

You also have to show the dealer that you have car insurance before you can take your car home. Private individuals do not operate under that burden of requiring proof before the completion of sale.

Another one is R-12 Freon - IIRC, an individual may sell to another without proof of the other having a permit to work with R-12 systems, but a dealer cannot sell to a person without knowing that they can legally use R-12. I know a similar thing applies with anhydrous ammonia. Both of which are either dangerous, or hazardous, or environmentally hazardous substances.

I believe that a shop which works on brakes and clutches, even if it is solely-owned, must also meet standard for protection from and ventiallation of asbestos brake/clutch disc dust. A home mechanic, even one which works on several cars a week, has no such burden.

An individual may also brew a certain small amount of beer, or wine, and not fall prey to the whole host of restrictions, taxes, and regulations which apply to a vinyard or brewer. Beer and wine, while not imminently deadly substances (depending on how bad of a home brewer you are, I guess), are ones which the Federal and State Government normally has a strong interest in regulating and taxing.

I admit it seems like there is a disparity here in the law - AFAIK, I, an individual, can buy and sell hundreds of firearms 100% legally each year, and not fall prey to any dealer restrictions. That surely can not have been the intent of dividing dealers and individuals.

I would have to say, IMO, there should perhaps be a limit on the number of sales per year (not the number of purchases) before a person would be called a “dealer” and thus be required to get an FFL. But then, I also think there should be limits on most all items like that - individuals should not be able to work around the law to gain an advantage over a business if their intent is, in fact, to operate a business.

But when the private sales are untracked, how do you know if someone is violating the law? You cannot - the criminals will violate the law, and the law-abiding will be the only ones obeying it.

So I imagine your position is that you feel that given the potential for misuse of private sales of firearms, and a general opposition which you may have to firearms proliferation or transfers, private sales or transfers should be at parity to Federal sales? Or abolished?

Parity, not abolished.

Hey, way to go! It took you almost three pages before you managed to work a gratuitous insult into a post! I’ll have to make a note of that in my ElvisL1ves journal.

And no, the gun debate isn’t over. Nothing’s ever ‘over’. I guess I should have asked if the momentum had shifted away from the gun control lobby. I think it has. Democrats have been running away from gun control as a campaign issue. I haven’t seen any gun control ads for a while now, either because the major organizations think this is a bad time to air them, or because their funding is down and they can’t afford it.

But I’m sure they’ll be back. The anti-gun folks hang onto this issue like pit bulls on crack.