# Is the handling of the jury in the Kleiner Perkins v Pao case normal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 28, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230 "2015-03-28T20:33:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/1 "2015-03-28T20:33:38Z")
Just read about the decision of Ellen Pao’s discrimination suit against Kleiner Perkins (in this article. And am puzzled by a couple of facts mentioned. According to the article, only “Nine out of twelve jurors must agree in order to reach a final decision”. I thought jury decision was unanimous or undecided. Is there a different standard for civil trials (like this one)? Also (in that same article), it says the jurors weren’t allowed to see transcripts of the testimony, only to have portions of it read aloud to them by the court reporter. Is it normal practice to limit jurors’ access to testimony like that? That seems rather prejudicial, since testimony that is less-memorable (e.g. came right after a bit of testimony that was long and tedious, witness had a droning voice, etc.) is far less likely to be considered (regardless of it’s accuracy, relevance or value). You could make a bit of testimony more weighty simply by having a witness wear a brightly colored shirt, tie, or jacket (noticable, but still professional). ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/2 "2015-03-28T22:56:25Z")
Criminal cases require a unanimous jury; civil cases like this one do not, just a super-majority. And it’s common to prohibit individual access to the transcript; if the jury wants to refreshe its’ memory on some testimony it is read to the whole jury at once (otherwise they might not all read it the same part at the same time). ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/3 "2015-03-29T06:42:18Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Criminal cases require a unanimous jury Only mostly true. Louisiana and Oregon do not require unanimous jury verdicts for (some) criminal cases. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/4 "2015-03-29T21:52:09Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Criminal cases require a unanimous jury; civil cases like this one do not, just a super-majority. What is a “super-majority” of a jury? I thought in civil cases, it only took a majority of the jury to decide in favor of the plaintiff. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/5 "2015-03-30T15:37:17Z")
> [@dstarfire](#): > > Just read about the decision of Ellen Pao’s discrimination suit against Kleiner Perkins (in this article. And am puzzled by a couple of facts mentioned. > > According to the article, only “Nine out of twelve jurors must agree in order to reach a final decision”. I thought jury decision was unanimous or undecided. Is there a different standard for civil trials (like this one)? > > Also (in that same article), it says the jurors weren’t allowed to see transcripts of the testimony, only to have portions of it read aloud to them by the court reporter. Is it normal practice to limit jurors’ access to testimony like that? That seems rather prejudicial, since testimony that is less-memorable (e.g. came right after a bit of testimony that was long and tedious, witness had a droning voice, etc.) is far less likely to be considered (regardless of it’s accuracy, relevance or value). You could make a bit of testimony more weighty simply by having a witness wear a brightly colored shirt, tie, or jacket (noticable, but still professional). I’ve served on juries in California. Civil cases require nine of twelve jurors to agree, one way or the other. Criminal cases requires unanimity, either way. The jury can request any part of the transcript read back to them. But they can’t “see” it because it’s not written in regular English; it’s in a specialized shorthand notation. It’s somewhat of a nuisance, because it can take up to 24 hours from when the jury requests a readback to when a court recorder becomes available to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/6 "2015-03-30T15:43:47Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > What is a “super-majority” of a jury? I thought in civil cases, it only took a majority of the jury to decide in favor of the plaintiff. It varies by state. The common ones I’m aware of are 10 out of 12, 9 out of 12, or 5 out of 6. In Federal Court it must be unanimous, for both civil and criminal cases. (Federal Courts do not have a set number of jurors for civil cases, though. There is a minimum of 6, and they usually seat a couple more. Everyone seated is a juror, there are no “alternatives.”) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/7 "2015-03-30T15:46:36Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The jury can request any part of the transcript read back to them. But they can’t “see” it because it’s not written in regular English; it’s in a specialized shorthand notation. It’s somewhat of a nuisance, because it can take up to 24 hours from when the jury requests a readback to when a court recorder becomes available to read it. Judge’s discourage reading back transcripts, but I can be done. Many courts do have immediate or “daily” transcripts, but they are still not given to jurors. I think it’s believed it will be given too much weight if they see it written down in black and white. (on the other hand, many courts these days don’t even have court reporters, the whole thing is video recorded. In theory, you could play back parts for the jury to see. I’ve never seen that actually happen) ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/8 "2015-03-30T15:59:16Z")
I assume jurors are not allowed to take notes? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/9 "2015-03-30T17:41:43Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I assume jurors are not allowed to take notes? That also depends on jurisdiction. In some places it is absolutely verboten, and in others jurors are encouraged to write stuff down. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/10 "2015-03-30T17:48:25Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I assume jurors are not allowed to take notes? Getting more and more common. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/11 "2015-03-30T18:11:10Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > That also depends on jurisdiction. In some places it is absolutely verboten, and in others jurors are encouraged to write stuff down. And even by judge. Some allow it, others don’t. The fear is that the notes will be used by the juror and others as evidence of what was said, instead of their independent recollections. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/12 "2015-03-30T18:23:02Z")
Tangent: A lot seems to depend on the jurros being able to effectively follow oral testimony. In practice: are deaf persons ever chosen to serve as jurors? I guess the answer has to be “_it has happened, but is vanishingly rare._” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/13 "2015-03-30T18:24:41Z")
Many federal courtrooms now have real-time certified transcription, with screens at each juror seat. Part of the justification for this is to accommodate those with hearing impairments. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/14 "2015-03-30T18:31:12Z")
One of the questions on my juror summons questionnaire was “are you able to communicate in the English language?” I assume people who answer no are excused. While captioning can be useful for the hearing impaired, I don’t think a completely deaf person would be able to serve, because they could not communicate during deliberations. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/15 "2015-03-31T08:08:11Z")
I was on a jury where we asked for part of the transcript to be read to us. We didn’t have to wait a long time for the court reporter - I think it was around half an hour. The reporter came into the jury room and read the relevant part of the transcript. She then told us not to resume deliberations until she left the room. I’ve been on three different juries and was allowed to take notes each time. In each case the judge warned the jurors not to rely on anyone’s notes in place of their own memories of the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/16 "2015-03-31T11:54:09Z")
Relying on memory is pretty much the worst thing you can do. You’re memory will\* change, your notes will not. I could see an issue with letting other people see your notes, but not with taking them. And, yes, I mean will, meaning it is certain. ---
**Author:** ![get\_lives](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@get\_lives](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/get_lives)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/17 "2015-03-31T16:48:23Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Relying on memory is pretty much the worst thing you can do. You’re memory will\* change, your notes will not. I could see an issue with letting other people see your notes, but not with taking them. > > And, yes, I mean will, meaning it is certain. What if the note-taker is a terrible speller, has bad handwriting, missed some crucial wording, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/18 "2015-03-31T17:01:15Z")
California civil juries reach a verdict on a 9 to 3 vote. Most California judges allow the taking of notes, but the notes remain in the courtroom during breaks during trial and can go to the jury room with them. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/19 "2015-04-02T02:57:41Z")
I had a friend who was a court reporter. The biggest problem he had was not in recording testimony of witness who spoke broken or heavily accented or pidgin English, but in reading this back in court. He couldn’t help but to also mimic their accents and cause snickering in the courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![buddy431](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@buddy431](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddy431)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2015, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230/20 "2015-04-02T05:05:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Relying on memory is pretty much the worst thing you can do. You’re memory will\* change, your notes will not. I could see an issue with letting other people see your notes, but not with taking them. > > And, yes, I mean will, meaning it is certain. Yeah, but the law doesn’t always catch up with science very quickly. We still put a very high reliance on witness testimony, which has been shown to be pretty unreliable. We get “expert” witnesses on pseudo-scientific fields like bite mark analysis and crappy fire analysis from people who are not qualified to tie there own shoes. Jurors are not told the elements of a crime until the end, so they cannot try to listen for them during the trial. And then they’re expected to recall perfectly everything that was said, so that they can determine whether the elements were proven. Most of the time when government is stupid, you can just sort of laugh or sigh about it, but in the courts people have been wrongly imprisoned and even executed for reasons that are known about but ignored. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-the-handling-of-the-jury-in-the-kleiner-perkins-v-pao-case-normal/716230.md?page=2)